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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’ --Matthew 25: 37-40, NRSV

The idea of folks' being good without religiosity is not new. Nor, at least to me, is the notion that non-Christians can be "saved" (whatever that means).

To be honest, I'm a bit puzzled by why the pope's words have garnered so much attention.

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Everyone's gotta believe in something.

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There is an old joke. A priest confronts a woman who is outspoken against the church, it is apparent she hates it, and he starts speaking to her and she goes off on a tirade about all the ills in the church, the corruption, forgetting who they are, women's roles, etc....and he sits and listens, and after hearing her, tells her "madam, while I understand your anger, your one woman crusade to destroy the church won't work. After all,the leadership has been trying to destroy it for nearly 2000 years, and have failed, what makes you think you can?"

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ORIGINAL: njlauren

I don't particularly care for the idea that Atheists or anyone needs God's redemption or not, I could go on a long theological discussion about what that means, but I find this interesting for a number of reasons. The last couple of Popes, especially Pete the Polish prince, were all hung up on doctrinal purity, they were all heated up about the idea that Catholicism is all about everyone believing the same thing, that there can be no discussion or debate, and they silences theologians or anyone questioning the orthodoxy they loved to promote, they promoted the idea that the Catholic church was the only true church, had the only access to God, and otherwise made themselves look like assholes, further alienating themselves from most Catholics in the west, especially the US (cafeteria Catholics). Benedict was actually thinking it might be better to jettison those who won't accept the who enchilada and have a church composed only of the true believers.....all you have to do is look at the order of nuns that Der Pope and his goons went after, whose crime was they spent their time helping the poor and sick and old, and weren't running around yelling and screaming about abortion and same sex marriage (which the last couple of Popes have seemingly boiled down Catholicism to, being against abortion and gays, all the rest is triviata).....

This guy seems to be changing the tenor of the church, by saying how you act is more important than what you believe. This could be interesting, for example, Pete the Polish prince and Der Pope, his successor, both refused to act against the Bishops involved in the pedophilia and other scandals, because the guys who did that stuff were ideological hard liners, who supported the Pope unquestioningly, so they got away with giant moral transgressions. This Pope seems to be saying believing the right things isn't necessarily the Catholic way, and it could mean (I hope), he is going to start clearing out the ideologically pure but morally flawed hierarchy, and also will build bridges to people of faith and not, rather than sneering at them.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata


I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the existence of a compassionate deity in no way assures that every snarky twit gets a shot at Heaven.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I suppose I should be happy that the Pope has pronounced that I have a chance of getting into heaven.

However I find it odd that this is even an issue. If the Christian God is all compassionate (as it has been represented for two milennia) then the idea of punishing (by denying them access to heaven) a person who has lived a good life without believing seems superfluous. It contradicts my understanding of what compassion is.

So, from where I sit, it's really odd that this is an issue, and even odder that it took the Catholic Church a little over 2,000 years to realise this.

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Simply put the Pope can show his views up his backside. Let me know who empowered him to tell people who dont believe in God that we are still his children.

Its akin to the Aga Khan telling you you are all children of his God, that will go down well in the States.

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ORIGINAL: egern
I never understood Christianity - God made people as they are, then they misbehave and make him angry, and he creates and sacrifices a son and that appeases him - ?

I can see how this is a wonderful message if you believe in Hell, but I could *never* understand the logic in it.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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I wonder very seriously, do your devout but critical Aunts suppose they NEED to go to church and specifically go to the Catholic church in order to have a relationship with the deity? I wonder if they have ever even momentarily considered the obvious alternative of doing without the spiritual guidance of men in whom they have no faith. Do you suppose, now that the Pope has handed out to everyone the PRIZE the church has always offered only to those who BELIEVE, do you suppose that they might?
When the church says in as many words, you don't need it, shouldn't they? After all, rejecting church is not the same as rejecting God.

This started out sounding like a sincere question, but it quickly reveals itself as a hostile cross-examination with a far-from-hidden agenda. Not gonna bite.

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Perhaps you might ask them.

Perhaps. Though I don't see a pressing need to interrogate my family with a stranger's leading questions.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Atheists are upset that a believer in God would include atheists among the group of people that God loves. They are upset that people who believe in something they don't believe exists would include atheists among the group of people that this "non-existent thing" loves. Why that upsets them, I can't figure out. An imaginary thing (in their eyes) loves them? I can't see where there is any harmful intent or underhanded attempt at trickery.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I find it fascinating that atheists are surprised and/or upset that Christians would include atheists among those who are "covered by the blood" of Christ.

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ORIGINAL:http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/23/heaven-for-atheists-pope-sparks-debate/
Roy Speckhardt, executive director of the American Humanist Association, said that although he has been skeptical of Francis' outreach to the nonreligious, he welcomed Wednesday’s comments.

“I gather from this statement that his view of the world's religious and philosophical diversity is expanding,” Speckhardt said. “While humanists have been saying for years that one can be good without a god, hearing this from the leader of the Catholic Church is quite heartening."

He continued, “If other religious leaders join him, it could do much to reduce the automatic distrust and discrimination that atheists, humanists, and other nontheists so regularly face. “

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ORIGINAL:http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/23/heaven-for-atheists-pope-sparks-debate/
On Thursday, the Vatican issued an “explanatory note on the meaning to ‘salvation.'"

The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, said that people who aware of the Catholic church “cannot be saved” if they “refuse to enter her or remain in her.”

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I wonder then DS if the catholic church will now consider anyone(homosexuals or civil unions) are married in gods eyes.

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ORIGINAL: searching4mysir

FR

To a Catholic, redemption and salvation are not the same thing. What the Pope has essentially said, that if God is good, then all good comes from God, even if in the form of nonbelievers (they are doing God's work, even if they do not acknowledge it to be so). To a Catholic, Christ died so that all COULD be saved (redemption) knowing that not everyone would choose to reject sin and choose God (salvation).

For a Catholic, it isn't faith vs. works. It is both. Works only get you part of the way. Faith without works is dead (according to James), but works alone won't get you to heaven either.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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This guy seems to be changing the tenor of the church, by saying how you act is more important than what you believe.

He does. And as someone who thinks symbols matter, I appreciate his taste for simplicity and human connection. I'm not sure he'll prove any less doctrinally conservative than his predecessors, though.

You may have seen the side-by-side images of Benedict and Francis in the audience hall. I found them quite striking.

[image]http://imgace.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/old-pope-vs-new-pope.jpg[/image]

Things that caught my eye:

-- Gold throne to simple chair.
-- Fussy, ornate vestments to simple white cassock.
-- Fancy red shoes to ordinary black ones.
-- Red-carpeted dias to simple wooden platform.
-- Prepared text to no notes.
-- Speaking to listening.

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ORIGINAL: Yachtie

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I wonder then DS if the catholic church will now consider anyone(homosexuals or civil unions) are married in gods eyes.

That would make a mockery of love the sinner, hate the sin... wouldn't it?

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
I wonder then DS if the catholic church will now consider anyone(homosexuals or civil unions) are married in gods eyes.