RE: Yes, even Atheists...

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FrostedFlake -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 12:31:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: curious23 quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: curious23 I'm not a catholic so I honestly don't know exactly what it takes to get into heaven according to their standards. I thought, being a denomination of christainity, all you needed was to believe in God and that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. I thought this was the bare necessity in order to reach paradise. If it is, then what's it matter (especially to atheists) if he accepts our good deeds if he still sends us to hell for not believing? And if he doesn't send atheists to hell if they don't believe then, as I originally pointed out, what is even the point of faith? The pope is either pointing out something that is irrelevant (since hell is in the cards anyway) or he's undermining faith. It's my personal interpretation that by the "we will meet one another there" he tried to imply he believes that the ticket to heaven is based on deeds, not faith. As a Jesuit it would make sense if that where the case. And stating that faith isn't necessary to God doesn't undermine the meaning of having it anyways. As a thought experiment, consider God as being an actual father of children. If such a father has 4 sons, and one of them respects and honors him while doing good, while the second does good without doing it to honor and respect the father, and the third respects and honors his father while doing bad, the fourth rejects his father while doing bad. Which of the sons do you think the father would be pleased with, and why? The answer to that question depends on what kind of father you think this hypothetical father is, and what his values are. It's the answer to that question that I think the Pope is driving at, and I think his statement spoke heavily about the type of father he believes God to be, and what kind of values as a father he ascribes to God. Woooaaah you'er asking me to play devil's advocate here by comparing a being that makes absolutely no sense to a father. If I do, then let me present you with my own. This father has condoned rape, the selling of women, the death and murder against those who 'werent' chosen, and the eternal punishment of the Children of parents who at an apple he made and put in front of them. The commands he delivered personally to have fathers slay sons or to have kings destroy entire peoples are noble in the bible but if a person today claims they killed their child because God told them to or if a president declared war on a neighboring nation because Americans are God's chosen people because God told him in a dream, you'd label these folks as mad (I hope). So think twice before asking someone to see God as some sort of authority figure. The bible has him condoning some pretty scary things. If I were to answer your question practically, I'd say the first one who honors and does good by him. Of course, Job (Jobe) was such an individual in the bible and God took everything he had from job and tortured him terribly without killing him just to prove a point to satan that Job would still love him. My question to you is, if a father did the same thing to one of his four sons who actually was dutiful and good just to prove a point to his neighbor that that son will still love him and do good despite being abused and tortured in the worst ways, what kind of father would you consider that man to be? What kind of father do you think God is? But like I said, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I like her. Let's keep her.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 12:33:30 PM)
As an additional thought: The things that have been written by man about what God wants, and the things that have been done by man in God's name, all come down to this: what kind of father you think this hypothetical father is, and what his values are. What I see the Pope doing is taking a stance on stating that it is his personal believe that God's values are very different from the values the Catholic church, and other Christian institutions and individuals have held God's values to be. That's a bold move. Because it rejects certain parts of the Bible itself. But I think a necessary one, if one wants to move forward in a positive way from the history the Christian faith has had before.

curious23 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 12:42:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: curious23 But like I said, I'm playing devil's advocate here. Like I said, I feel that the Pope is moving towards the God of Christ, instead of the one from the old testament. I don't disagree with anything you've said, like I've said, I have some serious issues with certain things as they're presented in the Bible. However, what I'm seeing today is a Pope who is trying to move forwards in a positive, and gracious way. I tend to not try to not be vengeful for the sake of being vengeful. If somebody does me wrong, and they afterwards attempt to move forwards by bettering themselves through what they learned from their mistakes, I don't find it useful to keep pounding on them by continuously brining up "but you where wrong yesterday". The God of Christ detested homosexuality and did not support the equality of women (I'll quote versus if you ask). The new testament also speaks of the fate of those who don't believe in him in revelations. The new testament God sacrificed his some to appease himself. "Because you broke this vase Jimmy, I'm going to have a new kid that is perfect and torture him for you so that I can forgive you when you do bad things. YOU'RE WELCOME." Sorry but that God doesn't seem to be that much of a step up from the Old testament version. I understand that you nor I are here to legitimize what's in the bible. All I'm saying is that, when it comes to the pope, he's changing the very nature of god and his desires because what he stated in that statement is most certainly not supported in the bible (neither testament). If he's going to change who god is then he himself raises the question- If the bible is inaccurate about who God is and what he wants from his children in any way, then why do I believe in this book in the first place? And to that I respond "Exactly". The pope's changing the rules so that he can put a funny hat on what is obviously a very dangerous bear. I'm not like you Ullrs. I'm not going to go "Awwww it's so cute and non threatening now. What a pleasant change to what it was before." I'm going to see it for what it is. A giant fucking bear lol.

AbitHarsh -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 12:47:10 PM)
Well my grandma taught me Catholics worshiped idols and were going to hell. So who cares what he says anyway lol

FrostedFlake -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 12:50:38 PM)
Wearing a funny hat. Jesus. It's like I know this gal from somewhere.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 12:51:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: curious23 The God of Christ detested homosexuality and did not support the equality of women (I'll quote versus if you ask). You don't have to, I know the verses your talking about. Like I said, I don't disagree with you. [;)] I'm just not willing to get into the details around it on this thread. quote: ORIGINAL: curious23 If the bible is inaccurate about who God is and what he wants from his children in any way, then why do I believe in this book in the first place? And to that I respond "Exactly". Yup, his statement makes that question possible. For the first time in the history of the church. quote: ORIGINAL: curious23 The pope's changing the rules so that he can put a funny hat on what is obviously a very dangerous bear. I'm not like you Ullrs. I'm not going to go "Awwww it's so cute and non threatening now. What a pleasant change to what it was before." I'm going to see it for what it is. A giant fucking bear lol. Please don't be like me. I don't think the world can handle another one of me. [:D] I'm not saying that his statement negates there being a bear. I'm saying that if you want a bear to peaceful you coexist with humans, you don't beat it with a stick every time it displays the behavior you want it to display. That doesn't mean you forget it's a bear, or stop being suspicious when it's leaving park picnickers alone. It just means that I don't believe that sticks are the way to teach something to not be aggressive.

curious23 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 12:59:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar As an additional thought: The things that have been written by man about what God wants, and the things that have been done by man in God's name, all come down to this: what kind of father you think this hypothetical father is, and what his values are. What I see the Pope doing is taking a stance on stating that it is his personal believe that God's values are very different from the values the Catholic church, and other Christian institutions and individuals have held God's values to be. That's a bold move. Because it rejects certain parts of the Bible itself. But I think a necessary one, if one wants to move forward in a positive way from the history the Christian faith has had before. What traits could one possibly contribute to a being who's existence is undetectable in any way other than spiritual? You might as well ask what kind of father I think Leprechauns would be and what their values are. I've seen nice ones on my cereal boxes and mean nasty ones in movies that get stabby when you try and steal their gold. What are they basing these traits on? Th popes not basing his on the bible for sure. They chose to put their own spin on the natures of leprechauns just like the pope did (with god, not leprechauns). But that hardly means that their claims are true or even worth taking seriously. Even a nice interpretation of a leprechaun doesn't mean I'd want one as a father. And not believing in leprechauns might have something to do with that.

curious23 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 1:05:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: curious23 The God of Christ detested homosexuality and did not support the equality of women (I'll quote versus if you ask). You don't have to, I know the verses your talking about. Like I said, I don't disagree with you. [;)] I'm just not willing to get into the details around it on this thread. quote: ORIGINAL: curious23 If the bible is inaccurate about who God is and what he wants from his children in any way, then why do I believe in this book in the first place? And to that I respond "Exactly". Yup, his statement makes that question possible. For the first time in the history of the church. quote: ORIGINAL: curious23 The pope's changing the rules so that he can put a funny hat on what is obviously a very dangerous bear. I'm not like you Ullrs. I'm not going to go "Awwww it's so cute and non threatening now. What a pleasant change to what it was before." I'm going to see it for what it is. A giant fucking bear lol. Please don't be like me. I don't think the world can handle another one of me. [:D] I'm not saying that his statement negates there being a bear. I'm saying that if you want a bear to peaceful you coexist with humans, you don't beat it with a stick every time it displays the behavior you want it to display. That doesn't mean you forget it's a bear, or stop being suspicious when it's leaving park picnickers alone. It just means that I don't believe that sticks are the way to teach something to not be aggressive. No, if a bear has ever attacked humans, you shoot the freaking bear, cut off it's head, and leave it for all the other bears to see. It had it's chance to play nice. And FrostedFlake, we probably met at church. :)

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 1:08:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: curious23 What traits could one possibly contribute to a being who's existence is undetectable in any way other than spiritual? And yet, that's what faith does, and has done, through the entirety of human history. In fact, just about every single individual believer I've ever come across has their own view on what they feel their deity's values are, that in large parts seem to be more reflections of what they believe their own values to be, rather than reflections on what their tradition believes their deity's values to be. Everybody who I know, who believes in a personafiable deity, creates God in their own image. Considering that that is what's going to happen, I welcome the image of that deity being more like the father I would like to see projected than anything we've been in the last couple thousand years or more.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 1:10:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: curious23 No, if a bear has ever attacked humans, you shoot the freaking bear, cut off it's head, and leave it for all the other bears to see. It had it's chance to play nice. By all means, go ahead and do that, if you feel you must. I'm not your opposition. But my own values will at the same time not allow me to partake in this particular bear hunt.

dcnovice -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 1:14:07 PM)
quote: Th popes not basing his on the bible for sure. Hmm. To me, the pope's comments echoed Matthew 25 31-46, the most explicit (to my knowledge anyway) scriptural discussion of God's judgment of us.

curious23 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 1:23:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: curious23 What traits could one possibly contribute to a being who's existence is undetectable in any way other than spiritual? And yet, that's what faith does, and has done, through the entirety of human history. In fact, just about every single individual believer I've ever come across has their own view on what they feel their deity's values are, that in large parts seem to be more reflections of what they believe their own values to be, rather than reflections on what their tradition believes their deity's values to be. Everybody who I know, who believes in a personafiable deity, creates God in their own image. Considering that that is what's going to happen, I welcome the image of that deity being more like the father I would like to see projected than anything we've been in the last couple thousand years or more. Faith? You mean that thing that no one needs anymore since everyone is bound for heaven if they're good? I wonder if these same believers you come across would have any faith or deity's at all if they weren't told from childhood that if they didn't have faith, they'd burn forever and ever. Now that faith is no longer required, I'm not sure why people would have faith or try to give deity's natures or personify them in order to determine how they should live. Take the final step and cut out the middle man, pope. I personally welcome personal responsibility and no deity at all telling anyone how to feel about anything.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 1:32:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: curious23 I wonder if these same believers you come across would have any faith or deity's at all if they weren't told from childhood that if they didn't have faith, they'd burn forever and ever. I have faith, though not in a personifiable deity (I'm a panentheist). Nobody has raised me to have such faith. My mother is an atheist, and my father a church historian, and one of their worst critics. You go from the assumption that faith is only beneficial if it gets you something. And I don't believe that's a valid premise.

curious23 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 1:39:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar You go from the assumption that faith is only beneficial if it gets you something. And I don't believe that's a valid premise. The definition of faith is complete belief, trust, and confidence and something without evidence. If it had evidence, it would be called knowledge and substantiation would be a requirement for these faith based claims. After all, knowledge isn't knowledge without consistent, replicatable evidence behind it. Personally I see no reason why anyone would believe in something that has no evidence unless they were threatened (hell) or promised something spectacular (SANTAAAA!!!) but I like yours because it's at least peaceful.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 1:42:22 PM)
I was raised a Traditional Catholic. We parted ways with the Vatican, long ago. As a result of my religious up-bringing, we were encouraged to read canon law and the doctors of the church and since having my own parting of ways with my own faith, I have criticized some of the man-made rules of Catholicism. I believe what UllrsIshtar said is almost spot-on: quote: In fact, just about every single individual believer I've ever come across has their own view on what they feel their deity's values are, that in large parts seem to be more reflections of what they believe their own values to be, rather than reflections on what their tradition believes their deity's values to be. Everybody who I know, who believes in a personafiable deity, creates God in their own image. Considering that that is what's going to happen, I welcome the image of that deity being more like the father I would like to see projected than anything we've been in the last couple thousand years or more. I don't think that a loving, caring God will send me to hell, if I eat meat on a Friday. I haven't eaten meat on Friday for over 40 years because I believe "a little suffering is good for the soul" but, I don't believe I'll go to hell, if I stop that practice. I also am one to make fun of religion because I believe that if we were "created in God's image" then, God must have a sense of humor. If that statement weren't true, from whence does our ability to laugh at ourselves come? I am glad to see the Catholic church moving toward building some bridges and I just have to shake my head in confuzzledom at those that seek to tear that apart, also. Actually, I'm not so confused. Too many people around here tend to hate the messenger and not the message. So I guess I do get it. Peace and comfort, Michael

curious23 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 1:46:09 PM)
quote: I also am one to make fun of religion because I believe that if we were "created in God's image" then, God must have a sense of humor. If that statement weren't true, from whence does our ability to laugh at ourselves come? The same place our ability to eat forbidden apples came from. (I kid) On a serious note though, it's not that I'm against the catholic church actually changing for the better. I'm saying that the way they're doing it seems to be dishonest and merely an attempt to hold onto its members that are starting to wise up now that times are changing. "Wait don't go! We...uhh...we accept gays now! And gay marriage! And women have equal rights. And divorce is okay too! And so are blacks...and Atheists! Please come back and tithe!" Basically, pleasing the people so that they aren't completely dismissed as mythology within 100 years. If you're a black female gay atheist divorcee, this is your time to shine. Their next announcement will be that pets can get into heaven too so that they can keep their animal loving demographic.

dcnovice -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 1:52:14 PM)
quote: Personally I see no reason why anyone would believe in something that has no evidence unless they were threatened (hell) or promised something spectacular (SANTAAAA!!!) We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. A lot of folks seem to believe Jefferson's uplifting words, though I'm not sure there's much evidence to buttress them.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 1:55:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: curious23 quote: I also am one to make fun of religion because I believe that if we were "created in God's image" then, God must have a sense of humor. If that statement weren't true, from whence does our ability to laugh at ourselves come? The same place our ability to eat forbidden apples came from. (I kid) Touché!

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 1:55:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: curious23 Personally I see no reason why anyone would believe in something that has no evidence unless they were threatened (hell) or promised something spectacular (SANTAAAA!!!) but I like yours because it's at least peaceful. You see no reason, and yet, there are millions of people out there who have faith without being threatened, or promised anything at all.

curious23 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/26/2013 1:58:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Personally I see no reason why anyone would believe in something that has no evidence unless they were threatened (hell) or promised something spectacular (SANTAAAA!!!) We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. A lot of folks seem to believe Jefferson's uplifting words, though I'm not sure there's much evidence to buttress them. I didn't say these people didn't have the right. I said I didn't see the reason behind it. I don't see the reason behind jumping out of perfectly good airplanes either but by all means, go for it. It's not a hobby for me.

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