Zonie63
Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
I wanted to pull out the sections I've emphasized in bold for comment because they appear to be indicative of an underlying assumption that is one of the fundamental problems with our society as a whole.
I don't see how it's a fundamental problem with society as a whole.
quote:
WHY THE EVERLOVING FUCK should a woman be expected to justify her choices at all? Why does she even need a reason for rejecting a man other than that she didn't want to date him? Insert any reason you want, however frivolous or whimsical it may seem. It doesn't matter, because it's her choice.
Of course, she doesn't have to justify anything. I never said that she did. As you say, it's her choice.
But on the other hand, if the woman considers the man a friend, then perhaps some constructive feedback might be appropriate. What's so wrong with that? Even if she doesn't have to explain why, it might still be a nice gesture to do so anyway, so that the man can learn from the experience and do better next time.
If there's something wrong with the man that she doesn't want to go out with, why wouldn't a true friend want to be honest enough to say what it is? You're right that she's not required or expected to do it, but what's the problem in doing so? Is it some kind of deep, dark secret?
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And why should a woman have to justify her choice in partners, even if she later decides that choice was one that wasn't right for her in the long run? She made a choice and then changed her mind. It's no one's business but hers.
Of course. I never said otherwise. But the article implies that women never make mistakes, that their choices are always right and that the nice guy just has to accept it gracefully. They may not be required to explain themselves, but I was just trying to illustrate why nice guys might be confused (and even somewhat bitter) about those choices. Men are very logical thinkers, and when women make choices that seem illogical, men can't understand why. They'll still look for a logical explanation, but there isn't one. That's all I was getting at.
All you're doing here is saying "Yes, women make illogical, frivolous, whimsical decisions, and so what?"
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The sexual policing/slut shaming of women is inherently misogynistic and has long been a tool of patriarchal social systems to control women's behavior.
Huh? Where did this come from? At any rate, do you think sexual policing/shaming of nice guys puts women on the moral high ground?
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It's objectifying and dehumanizing.
This is very true, from both sides of the equation. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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No woman owes a man sex, a relationship, a date, or even friendship just because he's interested in her or because he's "nice" to her.
I already said that above, in a portion you did not bold.
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To suggest women are engaging in knee-jerk paranoia and stereotyping of men as horndogs robs women of their sexual agency.
I'm afraid you've lost me here. Is it not paranoia to automatically assume (without a shred of evidence) that a nice guy has ulterior motives? Doesn't the article you linked (and others like it) stereotype men as horndogs? It's not just a suggestion; it's an actual observation based on the very article you linked.
In any case, I don't see how it robs women of their sexual agency. There's nothing wrong with asking a question. There's no force or coercion involved, no oppression, no robbery, nothing like that at all. The option to answer is strictly hers. What's the problem?
quote:
The fact that you and the authors of the comments you selected ask such questions or made such statements shows we still have a long way to go to eliminate oppression of women.
Maybe we do have a long way to go, but I would say the fundamental problem here is a lack of open communication. If you wish to eliminate oppression of women (which I think is overstated in this day and age), then doesn't it stand to reason that it would be better if women were more open and communicative with men? If women don't wish to open the lines of communication and explain themselves, then I guess they don't have to, but then, their very silence contributes to their own oppression.
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The "nice guys" who have an expectation, whether conscious or not, that women will, should, or must explain themselves is part of the problem that the article addresses.
Okay, so then, don't explain. I really don't care all that much. I was just trying to point out a few pertinent observations about the article and the comments it generated.
As for me, I don't operate that way. I have no problem explaining myself. For every decision I make on a daily basis, even the most minor decisions, I can offer a half a dozen good reasons for doing so. I don't just say "it's my choice," because I find that to be anti-intellectual and illogical. I don't see it as robbing me of anything. Even subordinates in the workplace to whom I'm not required to give explanations, I still do it anyway. I believe that it's important to disseminate as much information as possible, to educate, to explain the why, to give a glimpse of the big picture, and to keep the lines of communication open.
To simply say "It's my ball and I want to go home" or "my way or the highway" is certainly everyone's right, but I don't see it as very helpful or constructive, and it certainly does little to eliminate the oppression of which you speak.
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RE: Do nice guy's finish last? - 
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