unsafenonconsent
Posts: 15
Joined: 12/8/2012
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To bunch a number of responses together and completely neglect to answer the OP's question 
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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
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WHY THE EVERLOVING FUCK should a woman be expected to justify her choices at all? Why does she even need a reason for rejecting a man other than that she didn't want to date him? Insert any reason you want, however frivolous or whimsical it may seem. It doesn't matter, because it's her choice.
Of course, she doesn't have to justify anything. I never said that she did. As you say, it's her choice.
But on the other hand, if the woman considers the man a friend, then perhaps some constructive feedback might be appropriate. What's so wrong with that? Even if she doesn't have to explain why, it might still be a nice gesture to do so anyway, so that the man can learn from the experience and do better next time.
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The point has been made that if a "nice guy" turns bitter and blows up in response to rejection, he's not really a "nice guy." I get that, but by the same token, if a "friend" decides against another "friend" and adamantly refuses to discuss it, then maybe she was never really a "friend" to begin with.
What if she did consider the man a friend until she realized that he wanted to take the relationship to a physical level? Friendship, for the most part does not include fucking. If he's questioning her about her decision not to fuck him, it's a fair bet that he isn't really her friend, just someone who was pretending to be in the hopes of getting laid, in which case it's a reasonable and intelligent action for her to cut ties completely.
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Telling a man "no" and being ignored certainly puts the man in the position of being wrong. Arbitrarily shooting down any communication afterwards on the basis of a gender-based assumption seems equally wrong.
What exactly is the basis of the relationship in this case? The idea that the friendship holds inherent value even when it's being abused and strained by one the "friends"? There's really nothing legitimately gender based in any of this. I'm a male. I've been on the opposite side of most of these behaviors from women. Rejecting someone who can't accept it is not a characteristic that's gender linked. What is gender linked is the simple fact that testosterone does make men more prone to persistence in general, in all areas of life. You can walk away from females in situations like this, you can scare away female stalkers easily enough, men though are much more likely than women to stick it out and continue to be a nuisance and/or threat until something more final, like legal action or getting hit by a truck intervenes.
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If there's something wrong with the man that she doesn't want to go out with, why wouldn't a true friend want to be honest enough to say what it is? You're right that she's not required or expected to do it, but what's the problem in doing so? Is it some kind of deep, dark secret?
Often there is something very wrong with the person asking the other one out. Have you ever had to turn someone down because the person wasn't attractive or intelligent enough? Because the individual has or doesn't have some characteristic you feel is important? It's not exactly a pleasant experience. In fact, in my personal experience, blunt honesty usually leads to dramatic outbursts.
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And why should a woman have to justify her choice in partners, even if she later decides that choice was one that wasn't right for her in the long run? She made a choice and then changed her mind. It's no one's business but hers.
Of course. I never said otherwise. But the article implies that women never make mistakes, that their choices are always right and that the nice guy just has to accept it gracefully. They may not be required to explain themselves, but I was just trying to illustrate why nice guys might be confused (and even somewhat bitter) about those choices. Men are very logical thinkers, and when women make choices that seem illogical, men can't understand why. They'll still look for a logical explanation, but there isn't one. That's all I was getting at.
All you're doing here is saying "Yes, women make illogical, frivolous, whimsical decisions, and so what?"
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The fact that you and the authors of the comments you selected ask such questions or made such statements shows we still have a long way to go to eliminate oppression of women.
Maybe we do have a long way to go, but I would say the fundamental problem here is a lack of open communication. If you wish to eliminate oppression of women (which I think is overstated in this day and age), then doesn't it stand to reason that it would be better if women were more open and communicative with men? If women don't wish to open the lines of communication and explain themselves, then I guess they don't have to, but then, their very silence contributes to their own oppression.
What I'm reading is that since men and women communicate differently from one another, women say things in ways that men can't understand or accept and the best way to solve this problem is with more ineffective communication. Is that your stance in a nutshell?
There's also a point to be made here concerning the gender dynamic in the paradigm of power that shows the flaws inherent in so many claims of gender oppression, but it would be an entirely different conversation. Suffice it to say that in those time periods with the greatest overt oppression there are singular exceptions one can point out who held a great deal of visible power. Examining the manner in which such power was accumulated in turn shows that many women in much less visible situations held a great deal of power in a practical sense. It's unacknowledged because it's not the form of power preferred by a male dominated society. The equation runs something like: males are comfortable with certain types of power->they proclaim themselves masters and largely control those types of power->society equates power with those types of power controlled by men and believes the lie that men are the masters. A lie that fundamentally serves the interests of the feminine elite. A lie that lesser females buy into and drag the superior ones into helping them fight it out for masculine forms of power with men on masculine terms. Traditionally, women understood something that many of us only realize with experience: that surrender can be an act of domination and control. Some women were capable of playing very deep games. Feminism, while in many ways positive, has made women think too much like men, which is fundamentally a losing game.
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To suggest women are engaging in knee-jerk paranoia and stereotyping of men as horndogs robs women of their sexual agency.
Not all women engage in this sort of behavior, but certainly a substantial minority of them do. I see it all the time: Woman wants a different sort of guy. One who isn't all about chasing ass. She spots someone she suspects might fall into her target demographic. What does she do to try to land him? Shows off her physical assets. Naturally, if you treat all men the same way, you attract the same sort of men. With the result that stereotypes on both sides of the gender barrier get perpetrated. Of course real solutions to gender issues only become possible with the recognition that gender is not a binary characteristic. Which will only happen when more enlightened self-aware transgendered types become socially relevant. Unfortunately most TGs are so confused dealing with an extremely confusing situation in an unforgiving social climate that they don't have the chance to develop the sort of self-awareness I'm talking about, so it could be a very long wait.
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FR
Why don't women want to explain their decision not to date/fuck a guy?
Well for one thing, if I give a 'logical reason' it opens me up to a counter argument. I say we're not compatible, and you say, sure we are. I say we want different things and you say no no, I want what you want etc. Ultimately I don't want to have that conversation. I've turned you down, no debating of my decision making process will make me change my mind. In fact, it will make me uncomfortable and feel pressured, not to mention paint me as the baddie. Guys actually do this.
Women do this too believe it or not. There's a simple solution. Tell him that you hate guys you question your judgements. When he says he really doesn't and asks what's the real reason you won't date him: Smile. Reply with "seriously, dude?" Then, walk out of the room.
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So if your behavior makes me even a tiny bit uncomfortable, I'm going to act with extreme caution until I know where I stand. Is it sexist? Probably. There have certainly been more situations with men which have put me on guard than there have with women. But ultimately the stakes are too high for me to NOT be cautious.
Really puts the whole thing in it's proper perspective. We're dealing with life and death here. People should only be in situations that make them concerned for their safety if that's where their kinks lead them, and for those no mercy  At the same time, that bit of paranoia you experience when walking in a bad neighborhood late at night...mightn't there be a racial aspect to your classification of the neighborhood as bad? Or, since this is the internet and we're all above overt racism, an economic aspect that on closer inspection is linked to institutional racism? Prejudice is bad. From a conventional viewpoint, getting stabbed or raped is a whole lot worse. I took this thought a bit further, but it was a bit too deep for the shallow currents of the interwebs, so will have to leave it at this.
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RE: Do nice guy's finish last? - 
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