RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


tj444 -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 1:22:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Gee, I just downloaded an app for my smart phone that allows me to track any cell phone number to within 5 meters of their actual location, does that make me an employee of the NSA?

unless you get a paycheck from the nsa & report to them, it makes you dam nosy!...

I am no where near you so ya cant track me!!! [:D] what app is this anyway? the only apps that i know will do that require the monitored cell's human to give permission to be tracked.. ummm.. is this one of those dating/hook-up apps?




vincentML -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 1:23:53 PM)

quote:

Oh... and to the larger question of how much the govt misuse such information... let's see... we life in an era when editors and whatnot need to petition the government to stop arresting reports for covering certain events. Now you want the government to listen in on all the international calls these reporters make?

Firstly, this is a continuation of a NSA program that was in effect under presidential order back in 2002. Secondly, the protocol for this program is subject to FISA Court overview and renewal every three months on any particular dip into the data pool. Thirdly, this was cleared with both House and Senate Intel Committees. Finally, this program does not involve the governent listening in to any calls but only tracing connections to suspects' calls. You totally mischaracterise the proceedure.

quote:

We live in an era when documentary producers who make films contrary to the govt interests are routinely arrested, harassed, etc. These people were not "doing anything illegal". In fact, they were upholding the US constitution and are persecuted by the US government for it... aggressively in some cases.

I don't kow what you are referring to. What doc producers have been "routinely arrested?"




DesideriScuri -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 1:27:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

Oh... and to the larger question of how much the govt misuse such information... let's see... we life in an era when editors and whatnot need to petition the government to stop arresting reports for covering certain events. Now you want the government to listen in on all the international calls these reporters make?

Firstly, this is a continuation of a NSA program that was in effect under presidential order back in 2002. Secondly, the protocol for this program is subject to FISA Court overview and renewal every three months on any particular dip into the data pool. Thirdly, this was cleared with both House and Senate Intel Committees. Finally, this program does not involve the governent listening in to any calls but only tracing connections to suspects' calls. You totally mischaracterise the proceedure.
quote:

We live in an era when documentary producers who make films contrary to the govt interests are routinely arrested, harassed, etc. These people were not "doing anything illegal". In fact, they were upholding the US constitution and are persecuted by the US government for it... aggressively in some cases.

I don't kow what you are referring to. What doc producers have been "routinely arrested?"


Isn't this an increased intrusion over the 2001 Patriot Act? I thought the initial Act only allowed for watching calls that either originated from or were connected to a domestic phone, but that the other end of that line wasn't within the borders.

This current case allows for watching calls that occur entirely within the US borders.




vincentML -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 1:41:01 PM)

quote:

meddling in the politics and govt of mid-east countries, including involvement in overthrowing mid-east govts is the major reason why islamists have a hate on for the US (& by extension, all western countries)..

The incident in Iran resulted when Iran and Britain failed to agree on a fair share of the oil revenues and Mossedeque nationalized the oil drilling, breaking the treaty. As for Iraq, Arabia, Kuwait, and the smaller kingdoms, working agreements were made with the happy complicty of the locals. You only assume the West overthrew so many ME governments without documentation. Why the Islamists have a hate on for the West is a complicated issue involving, religion, oil, and push back against modernization. Also, it is not the fault of the West that ME princes failed to share the wealth or develop other competitive industries to provide jobs for their people. There is plenty of local blame for poverty and discontent.

Every piece of plastic you use, the blacktop pitch on your roof and the tar covering your streets, many of the drugs you take, the synthetic fibers in your clothing, the pc you are typing on . . . all have their origins in petroleum. You cannot absolve yourself from a share in the 'blame' unless you have taken yourself out into the desert to lead an ascetic life.




vincentML -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 1:50:09 PM)

quote:

Isn't this an increased intrusion over the 2001 Patriot Act? I thought the initial Act only allowed for watching calls that either originated from or were connected to a domestic phone, but that the other end of that line wasn't within the borders.

This current case allows for watching calls that occur entirely within the US borders.

I honestly don't know if it expands the original act or if expansion occurred somewhere along the timeline between. In any event, I personally don't have any problem with a database on intranational calls as long as they have to apply to a FISA court and there is oversight. With congress involved I imagine alarms will be raised at any abuses.

Well, wait a minute . . . have a look at this . . .

The United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) is a U.S. federal court authorized under 50 U.S.C. § 1803, Pub.L. 95–511, 92 Stat. 1788, enacted October 25, 1978. It was established by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA). The FISC oversees requests for surveillance warrants against suspected foreign intelligence agents inside the United States by federal law enforcement agencies (primarily the F.B.I.). The FISA and FISC were inspired by the recommendations of the Church Committee.[1]




JeffBC -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 1:53:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I don't kow what you are referring to. What doc producers have been "routinely arrested?"

Laura Poitras
Oscar nominated fillmaker.
2012 MacArthur Fellow

Obviously a real menace to society, right?

The DHS thinks so. It's obvious why.




tj444 -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 2:15:06 PM)

you were the one that brought up gas in my tank.. and flying,.. assuming I had a vehicle, etc.. I never said I dont use any by-products of oil.. just not those you mentioned.. [;)] Its pretty hard not to use some, I just try not to use more than necessary.. I dont have any control over Big Oil since I am not even a shareholder (I wonder how many 401ks & pensions are tho).. so how can I be to "blame"? If it was up to me I would stop buying all mid-east oil, including from those oh so "friendly" Saudis & let em starve.. yes I know they would just sell it to China or other countries but it would extricate the US from the mid-east and all that shite.. The US govt is the one that viewed the mid-east as their strategic asset, cuz of all that oil.. & that view is what has dictated their policies in the mid-east.. At least now the govt seems to be trying to reduce its dependance on mid-east oil.. hopefully that reduction trend continues & that there will be other energy sources developed cheaply enough to avoid another increase down the road of those oil imports..




vincentML -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 2:17:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I don't kow what you are referring to. What doc producers have been "routinely arrested?"

Laura Poitras
Oscar nominated fillmaker.
2012 MacArthur Fellow

Obviously a real menace to society, right?

The DHS thinks so. It's obvious why.


Laura Poitras is apparently being mistreated. I don't know what her recourses are. Maybe she could have sought a court injuction against DHS. I don't know. Do you? However, she is obvious proof that we are not a nation of sheep. Most of us are just uninformed or distracted by all the many events that involve our daily lives to see much beyond our immediate news sources. I think she should have gone to court but I don't know the legalities. Others have sued for harrassment, haven't they?




jlf1961 -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 2:18:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Gee, I just downloaded an app for my smart phone that allows me to track any cell phone number to within 5 meters of their actual location, does that make me an employee of the NSA?

unless you get a paycheck from the nsa & report to them, it makes you dam nosy!...

I am no where near you so ya cant track me!!! [:D] what app is this anyway? the only apps that i know will do that require the monitored cell's human to give permission to be tracked.. ummm.. is this one of those dating/hook-up apps?



I just did a google search for a free way to track a cell phone number. works pretty good, for the numbers in my contact list. I just wanted to find out just how easy it is.

Now for some facts:

1) Cell phone call monitoring started during the bush administration. CNN even broke a story about it, if I remember correctly.

2) Emails are monitored for key words that could be terrorist related. Again started during the Bush administration.

3) If you think the government isnt monitoring your email and who you call on your cell phone, I have a few bridges in New York city for sale, some beach front property in Kansas, and plans for a cold fusion reactor that will take you off the electrical grid.




tj444 -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 2:35:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I just did a google search for a free way to track a cell phone number. works pretty good, for the numbers in my contact list. I just wanted to find out just how easy it is.

so all you need is a persons number? you dont need their permission somehow? any of the ones I have seen require the other person to agree somehow..

I know there are apps that will let you know if other people with the same app are in your vicinity, sorta like craigslist on steroids.. [:D]

Yeah, I have known for a long time the govt scans emails for key words, they have a special computer program that does that.. and all that other surveillance shite.. I dont know if they can eavesdrop on skype calls tho or what info they can get from them.. skype is based in Luxemburg i think, thats what it says on my bank statement anyway..




jlf1961 -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 2:38:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I just did a google search for a free way to track a cell phone number. works pretty good, for the numbers in my contact list. I just wanted to find out just how easy it is.

so all you need is a persons number? you dont need their permission somehow? any of the ones I have seen require the other person to agree somehow..

I know there are apps that will let you know if other people with the same app are in your vicinity, sorta like craigslist on steroids.. [:D]



Nope, like I said, I tested it on the cell phone numbers in my contact list, didnt have permission to track them. There is a setting in smart phones that only allow law enforcement to track your phone, so I passed on the info to the people in my contact list. Most people dont bother with the settings for gps tracking.




JeffBC -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 3:30:51 PM)

Please do not change the subject. You asked me for a journalist that had been "routinely arrested" and I told you. Would you like more names?

In terms of suing the DHS for harassment, again you do not understand your own country. Please research the phrase "border zone" and "constitution free zone" Within such zones (which is where 80% of the population lives and where Ms. Poitras' harassment occurred) the DHS is virtually unregulated. It has broad powers of detention, search and seizure and there is little to no recourse. At least, that's what crackpot conspiracy theorists like the American Civil Liberties Union tell me.

In a sense I sympathize Vincent... really I do. Only a few years ago I saw things as you did. I refer to myself back then and you know as "living in the matrix". It is the world the government has pulled over your eyes. But man that steak is juicy, isn't it? I miss it sometimes myself. You believe your government is benign. You believe "they wouldn't do that". But the truth is, they DO do that... and they have been doing that for a long time and we've all read the news reports. Wikileaks tells us the truth. Various things like Iran-Contra tell us the truth. Ms Poitras' documentaries tell us the truth. You just have to want out of the matrix. I have to warn you though, the real world is an unpleasant place.

What makes the american public "sheep" isn't the public themselves. It's not an individual defect. It's the fact that over time education has been depriortized, journalism standards have gone by the wayside, news is now propaganda, and mainstream media, in general, is a tool of the 1%. In other words, the government has won the information war. They know WAY more about us than we know about them. We know what they want us to know (for the most part).

The only thing that saved me from the same fate is a random link a a stupid geek article about something or another that referenced "occupy protesters" and I was like "WTF is an occupy protester?" Watching what happened with and to occupy was a real eye-opener for sure. It makes me wonder about what I "think" I know about the tea party.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 4:22:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

Isn't this an increased intrusion over the 2001 Patriot Act? I thought the initial Act only allowed for watching calls that either originated from or were connected to a domestic phone, but that the other end of that line wasn't within the borders.
This current case allows for watching calls that occur entirely within the US borders.

I honestly don't know if it expands the original act or if expansion occurred somewhere along the timeline between. In any event, I personally don't have any problem with a database on intranational calls as long as they have to apply to a FISA court and there is oversight. With congress involved I imagine alarms will be raised at any abuses.
Well, wait a minute . . . have a look at this . . .
The United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) is a U.S. federal court authorized under 50 U.S.C. § 1803, Pub.L. 95–511, 92 Stat. 1788, enacted October 25, 1978. It was established by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA). The FISC oversees requests for surveillance warrants against suspected foreign intelligence agents inside the United States by federal law enforcement agencies (primarily the F.B.I.). The FISA and FISC were inspired by the recommendations of the Church Committee.[1]


And, the Patriot Act allowed for warrantless wiretaps (sorta not really the same as the FISC overseeing requests for surveillance warrants). But, the wiretaps were for international calls, not wholly domestic calls. Yes, this could have changed with the reauthorizations in 2005, 2009 (and 2011?), but that doesn't really matter at this point (especially since I'm not in support of the Patriot Act; note: I wasn't paying attention prior to 2006, so I will have to say that I haven't supported the Patriot Act since 2006. Prior to that, I simply accepted it).






JeffBC -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 5:15:42 PM)

A bit more info on this after I checked with "a friend".

The court in question is basically a super-secret gig. No press. IT's been doing these orders for years. This is merely the latest installment. The order covers domestic as well as international calls. In other words, ANY call made to, from, or within America is being handed over to the NSA AND HAS BEEN FOR YEARS. This is not simply Verizon. It's all the US phone companies and possibly any others they can get their hooks into.

So now... knowing that the US govt. has been collecting phone call records on everyone in the US on every phone call for years is everyone still sanguine?




vincentML -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 6:00:40 PM)

The notion of a Constituitonal Free Zone is somewhat clouded. In 2006 the ACLU published a complaint about such a zone and Wired carried the story in 2008. It is true that Customs and Immigration (DHS) have a Fourth Amendment exemption to search and seize at the border. And the "border" was extended inland to cover major international airports and the immediate vicinities. Terribly misleading in the ACLU article is the statement: Using data provided by the U.S. Census Bureau, the ACLU has determined that nearly 2/3 of the entire US population (197.4 million people) live within 100 miles of the US land and coastal borders.

The government is assuming extraordinary powers to stop and search individuals within this zone. This is not just about the border: This " Constitution-Free Zone" includes most of the nation's largest metropolitan areas.


The suggestion that DHS can stop and search 197.4 million citizens without cause is rank nonsense. The exemption applies ONLY to people crossing the border.

This from the Wired article:

DHS spokesman Jason Ciliberti says the ACLU’s description of the zone as "Constitution-Free" couldn’t be further from the truth and that the check points follow rules set by Supreme Court rulings.

"We don’t have the ability to just set up checkpoints willy-nilly," Ciliberti said. "The Supreme Court has determined that brief investigative encontuers do not constitute a serach or seizure."

When citizens or visa holders encounter a checkpoint, most are waived on after showing identification, but if an agent suspects the person is not lawfully in the country, the agent can detain the person until the agent’s investigation is satisfied.

The government has long had the power to set up such check points, but has recently expanded the number of permanent and ‘tactical’ check points and deployed them in areas they hadn’t before — such as near the Canadian border.

The courts, however, are not on the ACLU’s side — and have regularly ruled that the Fourth Amendment’s protections don’t extend to the border area, airport screening or even to laptops at the border.

END of WIRED extraction.

From a February article in the Blog of the ConstitutionCenter.Org we get this clarification:

Legally, the 100-mile-wide region is called the “extended border” of the U.S., as defined by Title 8 of the Federal Code of Regulations. There is also something called the “functional equivalent” border, which is the area around international airports in the interior region of the U.S.

The DHS ruling from last Friday said its “warrantless searches” applied to the U.S. “border and its functional equivalent,” with no mention of the extended 100-mile border.

Two analysis papers from the Congressional Research Service from 2009 offer some legal insight into what tactics agents can follow within the 100-mile-wide extended border, and why the distinction between the extended border and the other two borders is important.

Searches within the 100-mile extended border zone, and outside of the immediate border-stop location, must meet three criteria: a person must have recently crossed a border; an agent should know that the object of a search hasn’t changed; and that “reasonable suspicion” of a criminal activity must exist, says the CRS. (The service had done the legal analyses to prepare Congress members for legislation.)

“Although a search at the border’s functional equivalent and an extended border search require similar elements, the extended border search entails a potentially greater intrusion on a legitimate expectation of privacy. Thus, an extended border search always requires a showing of ‘reasonable suspicion’ of criminal activity, while a search at the functional equivalent of the border may not require any degree of suspicion whatsoever,” the CRS says.

The fact that agents need to show “reasonable suspicion” outside direct border stops and airports puts their actions closer to the scope of the Fourth Amendment, says the CRS.

“The Fourth Amendment mandates that a search or seizure conducted by a government agent must be ‘reasonable.’ As a general rule, courts have construed Fourth Amendment reasonableness as requiring probable cause and a judicially granted warrant. Nonetheless, the Supreme Court has recognized several exceptions to these requirements, one of which is the border search exception.”


It is egregiously misleading (to say the least) to suggest that 197 million citizens can be searched without heed to the Fourth Amendment within a 100 mile Constitutionally-free zone. the map shown on the ACLU page (and I have been a big fan) is laughable. A graphic distortion of reality.

If Ms Poitras was searched and detained 40 times she is clearly being harrassed and I see no reason why the ACLU does not represent her in court.

Otherwise, there is just not much new here in your conspiracy scenario, Jeff. Sorry, no sale. And although you may not have meant it as such, I take your offer of sympathies as somewhat condescending. I hope I am wrong on that.





vincentML -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 6:13:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

A bit more info on this after I checked with "a friend".

The court in question is basically a super-secret gig. No press. IT's been doing these orders for years. This is merely the latest installment. The order covers domestic as well as international calls. In other words, ANY call made to, from, or within America is being handed over to the NSA AND HAS BEEN FOR YEARS. This is not simply Verizon. It's all the US phone companies and possibly any others they can get their hooks into.

So now... knowing that the US govt. has been collecting phone call records on everyone in the US on every phone call for years is everyone still sanguine?

They are not listening to our phone calls as you suggested earlier. So, its no big surprise that all the connectivity information is available. Welcome to the world of Big Data. If it concerns you find ways around it. We have ways. Phantom isp locations and throw away mobile phones for starters. You don't have to be a 'victim' of the gummit.




Owner59 -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 6:19:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

Isn't this an increased intrusion over the 2001 Patriot Act? I thought the initial Act only allowed for watching calls that either originated from or were connected to a domestic phone, but that the other end of that line wasn't within the borders.
This current case allows for watching calls that occur entirely within the US borders.

I honestly don't know if it expands the original act or if expansion occurred somewhere along the timeline between. In any event, I personally don't have any problem with a database on intranational calls as long as they have to apply to a FISA court and there is oversight. With congress involved I imagine alarms will be raised at any abuses.
Well, wait a minute . . . have a look at this . . .
The United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) is a U.S. federal court authorized under 50 U.S.C. § 1803, Pub.L. 95–511, 92 Stat. 1788, enacted October 25, 1978. It was established by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA). The FISC oversees requests for surveillance warrants against suspected foreign intelligence agents inside the United States by federal law enforcement agencies (primarily the F.B.I.). The FISA and FISC were inspired by the recommendations of the Church Committee.[1]


And, the Patriot Act allowed for warrantless wiretaps (sorta not really the same as the FISC overseeing requests for surveillance warrants). But, the wiretaps were for international calls, not wholly domestic calls. Yes, this could have changed with the reauthorizations in 2005, 2009 (and 2011?), but that doesn't really matter at this point (especially since I'm not in support of the Patriot Act; note: I wasn't paying attention prior to 2006, so I will have to say that I haven't supported the Patriot Act since 2006. Prior to that, I simply accepted it).







Ha ha!


"Laura Ingraham: Maybe We Should Have Focused More On Patriot Act, Not ‘Laughed Off’ Civil Libertarians"


http://www.mediaite.com/tv/laura-ingraham-maybe-we-should-have-focused-more-on-patriot-act-not-laughed-off-civil-libertarians/




TheHeretic -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 6:32:13 PM)

FR

That this kind of monitoring goes on, is only going to be news to those who don't pay a lick of attention. For them, it will be as Senator Wyden said, stunning. For some of them, all they are going to come away with is the notion that the government is listening in on their conversations about Paris Jackson's suicide attempt.

I read Orwell too young. This shit gives me the creeping horrors, but Pandora's box has been open for a while.





Owner59 -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 6:41:56 PM)

"This shit gives me the creeping horrors,"


Not when shrub did-it......


I don`t think there was a single thing shrub did that complained about or had a problem with......




Owner59 -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 6:59:57 PM)

"Lindsey Graham ‘Glad’ NSA Gathering Phone Records: ‘I Know I’m Not Talking To Terrorists’"


Go Lindsey!....Fuck those terrorists in the ass and whoever is enabling them, in the mouth.



http://www.mediaite.com/tv/lindsey-graham-glad-nsa-gathering-phone-records-i-know-im-not-talking-to-terrorists/




Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.0625