RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (Full Version)

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JeffBC -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 7:18:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
They are not listening to our phone calls as you suggested earlier.

That is an entirely different program and way older. And yes, they were at one point and may be now due to my occupy wallstreet interests. BAck then they were doing so (or likely doing so -- of course I was not told) because of particular things I was doing in the data security world. If it helps you any (which I'm sure it will not since you don't actually care about the fact that they are tracking everything), my information on the phone logging is "right from the horse's mouth" as it were. It's pretty unimpeachable. You cannot know that but I can.

quote:

So, its no big surprise that all the connectivity information is available. Welcome to the world of Big Data. If it concerns you find ways around it. We have ways. Phantom isp locations and throw away mobile phones for starters. You don't have to be a 'victim' of the gummit.

*nods* I understand. You trust them and assume they will do no (or little) wrong. I look at history and see they have already done MASSIVE wrong. Therein lies the split and you and I won't come to agreement ever because of it. I'm looking at a bad actor and you're looking at a good one. Both of us are perplexed how the other can look at the available data and come to the conclusion that they do.

And no, it was not meant to be condescending although I can see how it would've been read that way -- my apologies. I really DO see myself as having been "in the matrix" and I really do divide the world into those two groups now. And no, I don't think I'm Neo... in point of fact I feel sort of lost and confused and not at all certain what to do about it. If you want to know, what started changing things for me was the discrepancies between official reports of occupy protests and what I was able to easily observe for myself via zillions of live casts. There were way too many events where I saw the event from at least 20 different angles and knew exactly what had happened. The official reports... uh... varied significantly. So then I started digging.

There is just way too much secret shit happening in the US government... secret shit having to do with stuff like protecting the interests of intellectual property rights not protecting our safety and freedom.




Owner59 -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 7:57:18 PM)

[image]https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/576669_615011275183670_101153135_n.jpg[/image]




[:D]




Aswad -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 8:07:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

while they are dicking around getting a ton of useless phone numbers, there is some nutbar out there buying up pressure cookers that they have been warned about but then let them slide.. [8|]


That's a common consequence of information overload. Instead of security theater (i.e. measures aimed at making people feel safer), you should try to focus on security (i.e. measures aimed at making people safer, whether they feel safer or not). This involves better intelligence, not more intelligence.

We had Breivik on our radar for a long time before the Oslo/Utøya attacks up here, too. Security theater. The response: more security theater.

Good thing there isn't much of a terrorism threat out there.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

P.S.: Here's a visualization of what two days of metadata logs will show you, from Malte Spitz, a German politician (link).
P.P.S.: EU countries already have to retain this data for some six months or so, for everyone. It's called the DRD, and it's any serious criminal's wet dream.




Aswad -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/6/2013 8:18:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Depends on how it is used. Otherwise, what's the harm?


And this, right here, is why it's going to get abused: the politicians will, like you, be unable to see the harm of providing less than perfect security for this data. As a consequence, it will be obtained by criminals (let's not even bother looking at the potential for abuse by the government itself, as it's unneccessary to show why this is a terrible idea).

This data- which will become more expansive over time, without upgrading the security- will show your social networks, your travel habits, and various other information that can be used to plan rape, robbery, kidnapping, murder and so forth. For organized crime, it's even more valuable.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




jlf1961 -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 6:37:59 AM)

Lets see, the Bush administration did it, and the democrats screamed about invasion of privacy, and the Republicans came back with the intel gathered was worth the tactics used.

The Obama administration is doing and the Republicans are screaming invasion of privacy.

And considering that Verizon's costumer service sucks, their contracts reek of extortion, and Lindsey Graham is a verizon costumer who thinks it is okay.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 7:11:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Lets see, the Bush administration did it, and the democrats screamed about invasion of privacy, and the Republicans came back with the intel gathered was worth the tactics used.
The Obama administration is doing and the Republicans are screaming invasion of privacy.
And considering that Verizon's costumer service sucks, their contracts reek of extortion, and Lindsey Graham is a verizon costumer who thinks it is okay.


I do believe under Bush it wasn't used on calls that were wholly within our borders. Wasn't it that the calls traced had one connection within the borders and one connection outside borders, and there had to be a "terror" link to the calls monitored?

That is not the case here.




YN -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 7:23:24 AM)

General Reply -

Technically a cell phone is considered a radio transceiver. So are any "wireless" networks. In either case you have no expectation of privacy by international treaties.

In fact, since obscene radio transmissions (along with certain other behavior) are prohibited by international treaty, it is possible one could be prosecuted for obscenity on one's cell phone, not that governments have the time on their hands to make such efforts.

And if they can "legally" do so or not, almost every government does in fact monitor what transmissions they please. We certainly can, and as our telecommunications are "state" owned there is little that anyone can do to prevent it, save use code.

If any of you think your government does not "listen" you are in denial.

It is only due to the United States, China, Japan, Korea, Canada, and European (and a certain few other) countries having the computer and IT infrastructure they do to assemble these linked "profiles," that is gaining the notice, your internal security agencies could manually build such profiles more than a generation ago for those they took interest in, it is only the advent of the computers and software that has allowed this to be extended so it is done electronically and automatically.

And even in countries that do not have national telecommunications, most the telecommunications security personnel are retired or transferred police, and internal security people. If their former co-workers want access, they almost certainly gain it.




jlf1961 -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 7:30:57 AM)

Why did you have to go and get technical?




YN -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 7:34:41 AM)

It is what I do these days, so I must understand these aspects.




vincentML -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 7:40:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Lets see, the Bush administration did it, and the democrats screamed about invasion of privacy, and the Republicans came back with the intel gathered was worth the tactics used.
The Obama administration is doing and the Republicans are screaming invasion of privacy.
And considering that Verizon's costumer service sucks, their contracts reek of extortion, and Lindsey Graham is a verizon costumer who thinks it is okay.


I do believe under Bush it wasn't used on calls that were wholly within our borders. Wasn't it that the calls traced had one connection within the borders and one connection outside borders, and there had to be a "terror" link to the calls monitored?

That is not the case here.


Actually, if I am not mistaken, the current Verizon kerfluffle is over a leaked FISA ruling from 2007, or at least an enabling law passed in 2007 and signed by Bush.




vincentML -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 7:44:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Depends on how it is used. Otherwise, what's the harm?


And this, right here, is why it's going to get abused: the politicians will, like you, be unable to see the harm of providing less than perfect security for this data. As a consequence, it will be obtained by criminals (let's not even bother looking at the potential for abuse by the government itself, as it's unneccessary to show why this is a terrible idea).

This data- which will become more expansive over time, without upgrading the security- will show your social networks, your travel habits, and various other information that can be used to plan rape, robbery, kidnapping, murder and so forth. For organized crime, it's even more valuable.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


omg, Aswad, armageddon! As YN said these are wireless transmissions and there is a doubtful expectation of privacy, like it or not. The information is already being sold to Big Biz and hacked wantonly. One would have to be naive to believe they have privacy in what they put out over the wireless.




vincentML -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 7:53:58 AM)

quote:

*nods* I understand. You trust them and assume they will do no (or little) wrong. I look at history and see they have already done MASSIVE wrong. Therein lies the split and you and I won't come to agreement ever because of it. I'm looking at a bad actor and you're looking at a good one. Both of us are perplexed how the other can look at the available data and come to the conclusion that they do.

I don't think I granted absolute trust. However, I recall the bitching and moaning following the twin towers attacks admonishing the government for not "connecting the dots" before hand. Now, when they are trying to connect the dots some are bitching and moaning they have gone too far. The other difference between us is that I do not view 'them' as a conspiratorial monolith. If government abuses occur they are done by individuals and those people can be sorted. When you tell me a rather wild and unsupported story about a constituitonal free zone I have to put your poistion into a folder marked 'conspiratorial' on my hard drive. I choose not to live that way. [:D]




Real0ne -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 8:08:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Depends on how it is used. Otherwise, what's the harm?


And this, right here, is why it's going to get abused: the politicians will, like you, be unable to see the harm of providing less than perfect security for this data. As a consequence, it will be obtained by criminals (let's not even bother looking at the potential for abuse by the government itself, as it's unneccessary to show why this is a terrible idea).

This data- which will become more expansive over time, without upgrading the security- will show your social networks, your travel habits, and various other information that can be used to plan rape, robbery, kidnapping, murder and so forth. For organized crime, it's even more valuable.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


omg, Aswad, armageddon! As YN said these are wireless transmissions and there is a doubtful expectation of privacy, like it or not. The information is already being sold to Big Biz and hacked wantonly. One would have to be naive to believe they have privacy in what they put out over the wireless.




making a great case for all transmissions to be encoded.

that is the whole object of liberty. to protect rights not only corporate but also individual. corporations, aka government and criminal elements work together to violate your rights.

reps put it on the table dems raise a stink then dems slip it through and reps are quite.

same in reverse.

the people are being double teamed.

just because someone uses a tin can and string to talk with one another and a 3rd party can trespass on that private conversation changes nothing, it is still a trespass, hence the value in the old law that certain forces are trying to abolish.

the words spoken in your conversation are your creation hence your private property. they have no "legitimate" authority to trespass upon your property







Real0ne -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 8:25:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

*nods* I understand. You trust them and assume they will do no (or little) wrong. I look at history and see they have already done MASSIVE wrong. Therein lies the split and you and I won't come to agreement ever because of it. I'm looking at a bad actor and you're looking at a good one. Both of us are perplexed how the other can look at the available data and come to the conclusion that they do.

I don't think I granted absolute trust. However, I recall the bitching and moaning following the twin towers attacks admonishing the government for not "connecting the dots" before hand. Now, when they are trying to connect the dots some are bitching and moaning they have gone too far. The other difference between us is that I do not view 'them' as a conspiratorial monolith. If government abuses occur they are done by individuals and those people can be sorted. When you tell me a rather wild and unsupported story about a constituitonal free zone I have to put your poistion into a folder marked 'conspiratorial' on my hard drive. I choose not to live that way. [:D]


~W Wilson


Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something.

They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.

They know that America is not a place of which it can be said, as it used to be, that a man may choose his own calling and pursue it just as far as his abilities enable him to pursue it; because to-day, if he enters certain fields, there are organizations which will use means against him that will prevent his building up a business which they do not want to have built up; organizations that will see to it that the ground is cut from under him and the markets shut against him. For if he begins to sell to certain retail dealers, to any retail dealers, the monopoly will refuse to sell to those dealers, and those dealers, afraid, will not buy the new man's wares.

Section I: “The Old Order Changeth”, p. 13.



incidentally several inventors labs were burned to the ground with all their work, including the greatest humanist of all time, who attempted to give the world and mankind unlimited virtually free energy, Nikola Tesla.

how about ponds flieschmann, with cold fusion patents destroyed by collusion between the Patent office, DOE and MIT.

How about Burzinski and his break through cancer early detection methods and cure only to have the fda sue 5 times and FAIL finally to throw him in jail while they steal his patents. How about that? Congress asking the fda what the fuck is the matter with them? "naughty kiddies" now play nice. Meanwhile he has record cure rate even for brain cancer.

"You are either with us or against us" ~GW Bush
democrats republicans, chips off the same block with the same boss and it aint you. Investments have been made, that date back several generations and they will remain protected at all costs.


so call it what you will, here is top level government personnel laying it on the table, tell you that you have no choice but to bend over smile and take that sand paper dick like a man.



[image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/stuff/PatriotVtheAct.png[/image]




Its The American Dream



[image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/stuff/849983693_greed1_xlarge.jpg[/image]





YN -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 9:09:07 AM)

What is more interesting is where the UK's Guardian is concerned with United States spying internally where UK is widely regarded as "the most spied-upon country in the world."

Not that the rest of the EU is far behind - Actually, Most Countries Are Increasingly Spying on Their Citizens, the UN Says

quote:

To name just one example, Google receives thousands of requests each year from governments seeking everything from "names and IPs used to create accounts, to time stamps for when Gmail accounts were logged in and out of."

These types of inquiries have doubled over the course of three years, from 12,539 in 2009 to 21,389 in 2012. In the UK, government authorities can "self-authorize" their own information requests, so there are 500,000 of these kinds of probes each year, the UN report notes. The world's five biggest Internet companies recently wrote to Britain's home secretary to oppose the so-called "snooper's charter," which would require foreign companies to monitor web communications there.

Some countries are even more aggressive, authorizing spying on the computers or the destruction of data in cases of suspected wrongdoing. In October 2012, the Dutch Ministry of Justice and Security proposed legislation that would allow the police to break into computers and mobile phones both within the Netherlands and abroad in order to install spyware and search and destroy data.

"There is spy technology that we see on James Bond movies that we know have been bought by Germany, the Netherlands, and elsewhere, and we know that it's being used," said Carly Nyst, head of international advocacy at Privacy International.


Nobody is like China, yet.




Real0ne -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 9:41:29 AM)

quote:

In the UK, government authorities can "self-authorize" their own information requests,


we have the mirrored law, its the same way here, just have to get permission from another agency and in many cases not



1. Search Incident to Lawful Arrest

A search incident to lawful arrest does not require issuance of a warrant. In other words, if someone is lawfully arrested, the police may search her person and any area surrounding the person that is within reach (within his or her “wingspan”). See Chimel v. California, 395 U.S. 752 (1969). The rationale is that the search is permissible as a protective measure.


2. Plain View Exception

No warrant is required to seize evidence in plain view if the police are legitimately in the location from which the evidence can be viewed. For example, an officer cannot illegally enter a suspect’s back yard and then use the plain view exception to seize an illegally kept alligator living in the pool. But, if on the premises to serve a warrant duly issued to search for marijuana plants, the alligator, if in plain view, can rightly (though by no means easily) be seized.


3. Consent

If consent is given by a person reasonably believed by an officer to have authority to give such consent, no warrant is required for a search or seizure. So, if a suspect’s "significant other" provides police with a key to the suspect’s apartment, and police reasonably believe that she lives there, the search will not violate suspect’s Fourth Amendment rights even if she did not live there and even if she, in fact, lacked authority to consent, . See Illinois v. Rodriguez, 497 U.S. 177 (1990).


4. Stop & Frisk

Police may stop a suspect so long as there is a reasonable suspicion of a criminal act. The evidence necessary for “reasonable suspicion” here is something beyond mere suspicion, but is less than the level required for probable cause. If there is reason to believe that the person may be armed and dangerous, the police can also frisk the suspect. See Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968).


5. Automobile Exception

Because vehicles are obviously highly mobile, a warrant is not required to search vehicles if police have probable cause to believe the vehicle contains evidence of a crime, the instrumentalities of crime, contraband, or the fruits of a crime. Although commonly referred to as the “automobile exception,” this rule applies to any vehicle, including boats. While in some ways, it is quite a broad exception, this rule limits the ability to search those areas which might contain evidence of the type suspected to be present. In other words, if police suspect that the occupant of a boat is smuggling people across the border, searching a small tackle box on board would not be permissible. However, if they were looking for drugs, they could search the tackle box. The rationale is that, if an officer has to take the time to obtain a warrant, the vehicle might be out of reach before the warrant can be issued and executed. See Carroll v. United States, 267 US. 132 (1925).

6. Emergencies/Hot Pursuit

The rationale here is similar to the automobile exception. Evidence that can be easily moved, destroyed or otherwise made to disappear before a warrant can be issued may be seized without a warrant. Furthermore, if a suspect enters private property while being pursued by officers, no warrant is required to enter that property in order to continue pursuit, even if the suspect is in no way connected with the property owner.


Unless the fact-pattern fits one of the six exceptions discussed above, a warrant is required for police to conduct a search or seizure. Note that for Exception 1, search incident to a lawful arrest, and Exception 5, the automobile exception, although no warrant is required, there is a probable cause requirement. For a search incident to a lawful arrest, the officer must have had probable cause for the original arrest. If the original arrest was unreasonable or unlawful, the evidence discovered from the search will be excluded as fruit of the poisonous tree (see the subchapter on the Exclusionary Rule). For the Automobile Exception, the officer must have probable cause to believe that the vehicle contains evidence of a crime, instrumentalities of a crime, contraband, or fruits of a crime, whether the vehicle is moving or already stopped. Exception 4 ("stop and frisk") does not require probable cause, but does require "reasonable suspicion." Only Exception 3 (consent) requires no grounds on the part of the police for making the search.http://nationalparalegal.edu/conlawcrimproc_public/protectionfromsearches&seizures/extowarrantreq.asp




That is the problem with police state enforcement. the old law was based almost solely on injury, "corpus delecti".

They infringe upon rights when enforcing police actions which nearly invariably are designed to circumvent by ANY means an actual injury to person or property.

speeding for instance, who got hurt? no one. no injury you simply broke a police rule, then they break con law to enforce policing rules that they made that have no bonafide injury attached, hence no case, judge dredd law.

No requirement prove injury occurred only that you were a bad boy and disobeyed the LEW!








JeffBC -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 9:52:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Lets see, the Bush administration did it, and the democrats screamed about invasion of privacy, and the Republicans came back with the intel gathered was worth the tactics used.

The Obama administration is doing and the Republicans are screaming invasion of privacy.

What a sad thing that everything must be turned into the game of thrones... with sadly real consequences.




JeffBC -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 9:54:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I do believe under Bush it wasn't used on calls that were wholly within our borders.

You believe incorrectly. Sadly, this is one of those cases where I know something that you don't and there's no way to tell you what I know and from whom. That kind of makes my assertion worthless but there you have it all the same.




JeffBC -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 9:58:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
3. Consent

If consent is given by a person reasonably believed by an officer to have authority to give such consent, no warrant is required for a search or seizure. So, if a suspect’s "significant other" provides police with a key to the suspect’s apartment, and police reasonably believe that she lives there, the search will not violate suspect’s Fourth Amendment rights even if she did not live there and even if she, in fact, lacked authority to consent, . See Illinois v. Rodriguez, 497 U.S. 177 (1990).

Oh, I do LOVE that one. In and of itself it sounds innocuous until you couple it with the fact that the cops are under no obligation to tell the truth. So a cop can assert to the wife in question that her children are going to be seized and taken from her until the situation is sorted unless she provides a key. That is entirely legal and entirely disgusting.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Can you hear me now? NSA & Verizon can (6/7/2013 11:05:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Lets see, the Bush administration did it, and the democrats screamed about invasion of privacy, and the Republicans came back with the intel gathered was worth the tactics used.
The Obama administration is doing and the Republicans are screaming invasion of privacy.
And considering that Verizon's costumer service sucks, their contracts reek of extortion, and Lindsey Graham is a verizon costumer who thinks it is okay.

I do believe under Bush it wasn't used on calls that were wholly within our borders. Wasn't it that the calls traced had one connection within the borders and one connection outside borders, and there had to be a "terror" link to the calls monitored?
That is not the case here.

Actually, if I am not mistaken, the current Verizon kerfluffle is over a leaked FISA ruling from 2007, or at least an enabling law passed in 2007 and signed by Bush.


According to the Slate.com blog, the section of the US Patriot Act this is authorized under is 50 USC Section 1861 (which is found in the leaked FISC ruling).
    quote:

    (a) Application for order; conduct of investigation generally
      (1) Subject to paragraph (3), the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a designee of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant Special Agent in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items) for an investigation to obtain foreign intelligence information not concerning a United States person or to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.

    ...
    (b) Recipient and contents of application
      Each application under this section—
      (1) shall be made to—
        (A) a judge of the court established by section 1803 (a) of this title; or
        (B) a United States Magistrate Judge under chapter 43 of title 28, who is publicly designated by the Chief Justice of the United States to have the power to hear applications and grant orders for the production of tangible things under this section on behalf of a judge of that court; and
      (2) shall include—
        (A) a statement of facts showing that there are reasonable grounds to believe that the tangible things sought are relevant to an authorized investigation (other than a threat assessment) conducted in accordance with subsection (a)(2) to obtain foreign intelligence information not concerning a United States person or to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, such things being presumptively relevant to an authorized investigation if the applicant shows in the statement of the facts that they pertain to—
          (i) a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power;
          (ii) the activities of a suspected agent of a foreign power who is the subject of such authorized investigation; or
          (iii) an individual in contact with, or known to, a suspected agent of a foreign power who is the subject of such authorized investigation; and
        (B) an enumeration of the minimization procedures adopted by the Attorney General under subsection (g) that are applicable to the retention and dissemination by the Federal Bureau of Investigation of any tangible things to be made available to the Federal Bureau of Investigation based on the order requested in such application.


According to this, it sure seems like this shouldn't allow the FBI/NSA access to all metadata, as they are collecting, indiscriminately, and the data includes information concerning a US person without proof they pertain to a foreign power, an agent of a foreign power, activities of the suspected foreign power or agent of a foreign power, or an individual in contact with a foreign power, or agent of a foreign power.




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