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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/15/2013 11:44:04 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Until existence or non-existence can be proven, they remain theories. Therefore, religion is a notion that is approached and embraced emotionally. If someone were asked if a supreme being exists, their only logical answer could be "I don't know." For if they answered yes or no, they may then need to address why they have chosen to embrace a notion based upon emotion.

We agree to a point.

I am suggesting that all our choices are based on the integrated self and that reasoning comes after when we search out a rational for our choices. I could never have chosen in my life to be an astronaut nor a serial killer. Neither are my identity. I am repelled by some of the religious ritual experiences I had and by religious fantasies. I am not sure exactly why. Only that I am. However, I can probably list reasons for why I disagree with those rituals and ideas as afterthought.

(in reply to subfever)
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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/15/2013 11:53:44 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I have dreams of the Christian friend who passed- and never dream per my best friend.


So- the impact in my life - and I am amazed really- as I thought it would be the other way around.

Hey, Pa, logical is what you arrive at after you marvel at your choices, imo. Who knows the intricate assimilation of experiences that went on throughout your life to lead you to the feelings you describe? When you say you are amazed I take away that the choice came from emotion. You did not sit down and ponder your friends and place value on them. Your history of emotional experiences did. I'm glad you are content with your god and your new friend.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/15/2013 11:56:02 AM >

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/15/2013 11:57:03 AM   
MrBukani


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Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		I agree in the pure logical and rational sense we cant say if God exists or not, cause it is near impossible to prove.

BUT here it comes, we are not purely logical(we're not spock) nor rational, a big part of us is emotional and emotions are very real.
We love our wives and to give that a logical answer does not give us the whole picture. It's an emotion and it's REAL beyond any reasonable doubt.
So yes, saying yes or no might be based partly on emotion. It doesn't make it less real in probability
Most scientists start with an idea based on theories, they are not emotional. But the exciting part wich makes them curious is by definition an emotion.
In short we try to separate logic from feelings to attain truth. Sometimes you cannot grasp the truth without emotion.
That is why it is faith and believing there is a God.
My Goddess is Nature, that is a conviction, cause we all know nature is there. So for me I have proven without a doubt a supreme being exists.
Like Budhism is more a way of life, we call it a life-conviction in holland more so then a religion.
I actually miss the buddhist view on believing here a bit.

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/15/2013 3:11:11 PM   
cordeliasub


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Status: offline 		I can definitely see that part of my faith has emotional components. I will readily confess that a year and a half ago when my best friend sicne the age of 13 died after a horrible battle with cancer, I was comforted when I thought of her whole and cancer free in Heaven. I also confess that I asked God...why??? Why did such an amazing woman, wife, and mother of young daughters have to suffer?? I confess that right now in my own life, where some big things are currently very uncertaion, I find comfort in verses like Jeremiah 29:11 (I won't quote it and get all...quotey lol).

I can understand exactly why someone who does not believe in God might say, "Cordelia, why do you need that 'crutch'? It would be more logical to take comfort in the fact that your friend lived life well. It would be more rational to understand that you make your own future." I can definitely see their point. But....I can't fully explain it. In 1998 I had what was supposed to be a routine tubal ligation...and two large tumors were found. One was suspicious. I had a 2 year old and a 5 months old. I lay awake terrified and sad at the thought that if I had cancer, they might grow up without their mom. Then I prayed, and a passage came to mind - Philippians 4:6,7. I thought on that....and I had peace. That carried me through the days of waiting.

I may find out one day that those verses were nothing but pretty words based on a fairy tale. I'm not sure it really matters....because during those days in July of 1998 I was able to have peace and to rest and to take care of my family with hope rather than be paralyzed by fear...and THAT was a good thing.

I wasn't sure whether to post this song because....honestly, it could come across all preachy, and I do NOT believe in being a preachy obnoxious know it all (cause I definitely don't know it all...not even sure I know some some days lol). But an earlier post made me think of it...the idea that I might be wrong. But I might be right when it comes to all this God stuff. Please know that I just think it is a lovely song and I am NOT trying to make any kind of self-righteous point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ScWCfNPpI

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/15/2013 4:10:59 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I have dreams of the Christian friend who passed- and never dream per my best friend.


So- the impact in my life - and I am amazed really- as I thought it would be the other way around.

Hey, Pa, logical is what you arrive at after you marvel at your choices, imo. Who knows the intricate assimilation of experiences that went on throughout your life to lead you to the feelings you describe? When you say you are amazed I take away that the choice came from emotion. You did not sit down and ponder your friends and place value on them. Your history of emotional experiences did. I'm glad you are content with your god and your new friend.



It is a process. Thats for sure. :-)

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/15/2013 8:02:40 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever
Since no proof exists either way, the logical path to choose would then be to question why we have chosen to believe or not believe.


Well the study of the psychological manipulation behind belief is quite interesting.

I'd go one step farther than you and say that logically one should employ the null hypothesis.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 6/15/2013 8:03:40 PM >

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/16/2013 1:39:23 AM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		I hope people see in this thread we can freely exchange ideas and arguments, without it ending in a bitter battle of words.
I enjoyed reading posts, listening to a song and now I am studying the null hypothesis.

Most people love believing there's an afterlife, me included. So for me who wants it proven beyond any doubt, my afterlife is lived through my future children, my thoughts and friends.

What I am saying (preaching if you will) is that the magic doesn't have to die, when all is explained in rational down to earth convictions like mine.
Cause I believe the magic of reality is far greater then the magic of imagination or fantasy.

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/17/2013 9:01:38 AM   
Charles6682


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Status: offline 		Religion and politics are always touchy topics with many people. I use to come into the "Politics and Religion" section a lot here on Collarchat but I only come in here nowadays if an interesting topic pop's up. I want to try to find some "common ground" with like minded people (kinksters). I don't want my political to get in the way. "Agree to disagree" is certainly needed in Modern Day politics now more then ever.

(in reply to MrBukani)
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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/17/2013 3:44:35 PM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		You have constructive and destructive criticism. Positive and negative.
I think forum posters need more constructive positive threads were real debate is done. Like the old greeks did. They fought with words as well, but also took time to really listen to other opinions and grow. Admit mistakes, give credit to new reliable and available information.
I think this is needed dearly in politics and religion.
On here just as much as in society as a whole.
And like you can see here, at least I do, is that it can be just as interesting, maybe even more.

Think of it yourselves the next time you post a thread or comment.
Why do you really post it?
To just confirm your own reality and beliefs and gather more supporters?
Do you want to inform people and gather a general opinion for a cause?
Or do you really want to learn from opposing views and understand the opposite opinion?
Goodday.

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/18/2013 2:24:05 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
Most people love believing there's an afterlife, me included. So for me who wants it proven beyond any doubt, my afterlife is lived through my future children, my thoughts and friends.

And there it is, one doesn't need to be in thrall to a celestial puppeteer to have a meaningful life. We're immensely capable of choosing our own paths and living our lives in ways meaningful to us.

Littlewonder talked about the unhappiness that would come from thinking there is no God but I can assure everyone that isn't what happens. Sure the uncertainty that occurs when one is overcoming their faith tends to really kind of suck but on the other side things are great. There's plenty of real meaning over here which in my personal estimation far exceeds any emotional fulfillment I got from the belief of being part of some unknowable plan.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
What I am saying (preaching if you will) is that the magic doesn't have to die, when all is explained in rational down to earth convictions like mine.
Cause I believe the magic of reality is far greater then the magic of imagination or fantasy.

So long as you're using magic as a euphemism I agree with you. The awe inspiring nature of the beauty and complexity that is reality far exceeds that of any myth I've ever heard of.

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/18/2013 9:52:09 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I agree in the pure logical and rational sense we cant say if God exists or not, cause it is near impossible to prove.

BUT here it comes, we are not purely logical(we're not spock) nor rational, a big part of us is emotional and emotions are very real.
We love our wives and to give that a logical answer does not give us the whole picture. It's an emotion and it's REAL beyond any reasonable doubt.
So yes, saying yes or no might be based partly on emotion. It doesn't make it less real in probability
Most scientists start with an idea based on theories, they are not emotional. But the exciting part wich makes them curious is by definition an emotion.
In short we try to separate logic from feelings to attain truth. Sometimes you cannot grasp the truth without emotion.
That is why it is faith and believing there is a God.
My Goddess is Nature, that is a conviction, cause we all know nature is there. So for me I have proven without a doubt a supreme being exists.
Like Budhism is more a way of life, we call it a life-conviction in holland more so then a religion.
I actually miss the buddhist view on believing here a bit.



Of course emotions are real.

Different strokes for different folks I suppose, but as for me... emotions have helped cloud the truth more so than clarify. Just because I want to believe something, doesn't make it true.

Also, it seems to me that emotion is what causes folks to cling to the past, along with its related obsolete notions. Our masters manipulate our emotions to keep us inside the box.

< Message edited by subfever -- 6/18/2013 9:53:40 PM >

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/19/2013 6:09:05 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Littlewonder talked about the unhappiness that would come from thinking there is no God but I can assure everyone that isn't what happens. Sure the uncertainty that occurs when one is overcoming their faith tends to really kind of suck but on the other side things are great. There's plenty of real meaning over here which in my personal estimation far exceeds any emotional fulfillment I got from the belief of being part of some unknowable plan.


I tend to agree with this. I've actually heard some atheists say that they're more at peace with the universe by not believing in God, since they can attribute tragedies and other unfortunate events to simply a matter of random probability. If one believes that there is actually a sentient, intelligent being controlling things from up above, then that can actually make a person more angry and unhappy with that particular being for all the events it has caused or failed to prevent.

Some of this also has to do with the numerous platitudes offered by religious folks. They say things like "God loves you" and "God has a plan for you." This even goes beyond the basic question of whether or not there is a God, since not only does it assume the existence of God, but it also makes assumptions about God's personality, intentions, plans, and emotional state of being. There is also the assumption that God is perfect and all-powerful, that He never makes mistakes, and that we're supposed to simply accept that "God works in mysterious ways."

Maybe God does exist, but maybe He's an asshole. Maybe He's incompetent. Maybe He doesn't love us or have a plan for us. Maybe He's the celestial equivalent of a spoiled brat just fucking things up for His own sadistic pleasure. Maybe Lucifer is the true God and the Bible God is the true Devil. Or maybe none of the above. There are so many possibilities, it seems that to just pick one and say "this is what I believe" would be an exercise in futility.


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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/19/2013 7:52:00 AM   
evesgrden


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Status: offline 		The supernatural: science as yet undefined.

Afterlife: denial or arrogance, I'm not sure which. Denial, as we seem to need to believe we will somehow live forever. Arrogance, in the thought that one can cheat death.. after all, that's what the promise of eternal life is, a way to cheat death.

I'd love to find out there's an afterlife. All of you who believe, only have to say "seeya later" when someone you love dies. What a wonderful and easy way to deal with grief and loss. For me, it's the big goodbye, do not pass go do not collect $200.00. It's forever.

By the same token, I believe you should do good because it's the right thing, not because I'll annoy the big bad in the sky and be punished for it.

Man has always needed to explain what he didn't understand, and would create an explanation no matter how outlandish. Which explanation do "you" (generic) believe, why the one you were exposed to at a time when you wanted the explanation. "I Heard the Owl Call my Name". Moses. Allah. Zeus. Apollo pulls the sun across the sky (OBVIOUSLY!!!!). Bad things happen because God is angry, you didn't make a sacrifice, etc. God is good because... well look at your life, your "blessings". Tell that to children in Darfur, to whose in the slave trade. Tell them how this is all part of God's plan, and what a good great God he is.

But he works in mysterious ways. That's the biggest bill of goods of all, because when logic creeps in, we need a way to throw it out.

Do good because it's the right thing to do. Don't worry about the rest, in 100 years you'll know or you'll be "gone" and functionally asleep, so it doesn't matter. Just do good.

Best bumper sticker I ever saw... "Jesus, protect me from your followers".

The cruelty dictated and tolerated in the name of religion (always motivated by personal gain) makes me sick.

_____________________________

What you permit, you promote.

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/19/2013 8:27:32 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

Man has always needed to explain what he didn't understand, and would create an explanation no matter how outlandish.


I can see how it happens, though. If I imagined myself as early man, in a state of nature, without any knowledge of religion, politics, science or anything else that influences our perceptions nowadays, I might look at the Sun as being some kind of powerful entity. It gives us light, warmth; our very lives are dependent on the Sun. If people conclude that the Sun itself is "God," then one can at least see some sort of tangible basis for it. After all, the Sun exists, we can see it, feel its warmth, etc. Many early religions had astronomical associations with their Gods and Goddesses: The Sun, the Moon, the planets, the constellations - observable phenomena which people could actually see and make suppositions about whether or not there was any intelligence behind it all. But then, their individual personalities and hierarchy - you have to wonder if there was anything to that or if it was all just made up out of thin air.

Zeus is associated with Jupiter, but then, how did Jupiter become the Chief God? The Sun is more powerful than Jupiter, so why not the God of the Sun as being the top God? How would anyone reach the conclusion that Mars is the God of War and Venus is the Goddess of Love?

I can see how people might be inclined to try to explain that which they don't understand, but I wonder how the explanations became so elaborate and widely accepted?

As for an afterlife, who knows? I've read about people who have had near death experiences, where they describe feeling very peaceful and going towards a bright light. I'm not ready to dismiss their stories out of hand, but I'm not readily inclined to believe them either.

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/19/2013 9:04:20 AM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		That is a jumble of false ideas about the Divine.

_____________________________

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"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/19/2013 9:19:26 AM   
igor2003


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
What I miss in the abrahamic books is a lot of the why's.


This past evening I witnessed one of the people who had no Christian ancestors. He was a young negro. He was a beautiful man of the warrior or savage type and he clearly lacked the Holy Ghost in his mind. He took away my neighbour's house keys in the elevator, and when my neighbour protested, he pulled out a knife and searched my neighbour's pockets. Then they came up to my floor and disturbed me. Being a coward, I took refuge in my room.
I heard that the perp was later jumped by a number of policemen - who also sought him for a number of other transgressions - and taken away.

I do think that Christian people have a high frequency of good, decent people. Whereas in non-Christian peoples that frequency is quite a bit lower.



"He clearly lacked the Holy Ghost in his mind"? I'm just curious as to how you reached that conclusion. Was it because he was black, so you determined that he "had no Christian ancestors"?

It's okay that you think that Christian people have a higher frequency of good, decent people, and that non-Christian people have a lower frequency. That is certainly your right to believe so. I think you are wrong. I've seen MANY "Christians" that I think are the scum of the earth. I've seen "Christian" businessmen "gouge" their fellow church members in the quest for the almighty dollar. I've seen "Christians" say that "Jesus died for my sins, so I am saved!", then go ahead and commit sins against the Ten Commandments because they think it has been excused by God. To me, a "Christian" attempts to live their life the way that "Christ" would have done. Thus the name. Most "Christians" fall well short of even a minimal attempt at that goal.

On the other hand I have seen many non-Christians doing good, kind deeds. That includes Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and even atheists, and many others.

To me, the incident you described was not about religion. It was about morality. And morality is not necessarily attached to, or an indication of any religion. I recently saw a quote that made a lot of sense to me. I don't know the author of the quote, but it is as follows:

"Morality is doing right, no matter what your are told. Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right."

It may not be 100% true, but it is certainly more true than saying that, "Christians have a higher frequency of good decent people."

Just my opinion.



_____________________________

If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy. - Red Green

At my age erections are like cops...there's never one around when you need it!

Never miss a good chance to shut up. - Will Rogers


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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/19/2013 10:20:07 AM   
Rule


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_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to igor2003)
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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/19/2013 4:34:55 PM   
MrBukani


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I tend to agree with this. I've actually heard some atheists say that they're more at peace with the universe by not believing in God, since they can attribute tragedies and other unfortunate events to simply a matter of random probability. If one believes that there is actually a sentient, intelligent being controlling things from up above, then that can actually make a person more angry and unhappy with that particular being for all the events it has caused or failed to prevent.

I like this thought because I feel I am more at peace with nature then the god of the bible. And they can have a harder time coping with it. On the other hand they have faith in heaven wich can be just as supportive. But not argumentive. I always hear a lot of believers ask, "why does this happen to me?" I do ask the same question and come up with more rational reasons I believe. For christians or muslims for example, it's often case closed with the everlasting sentence," It's the will of God."

Another concept as to why is also what and in what state of mind do we believe in higher powers. I think, when spirituality started out it was much more down to earth, then what religion developed into. I think early man had a healthy fear of nature and it's forces. And they respected all aspects of natures forces as divine. In my eyes religion started with the sacrificial ritual. An act wich has led to many horrors.
As I have read the romans and greeks had a very different notion of sexual orientation, I believe this is the same for spirituality. The spirit world of the ancients seems much richer to me. Although logical sense leads me to monotheistic faith, I have grown more fond and have more respect for polytheism in the primal sense.

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/19/2013 5:14:17 PM   
MrRodgers


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Status: offline 		God was created by man as the authority on what humans themselves decided to describe as a way of living...a moral philosophy. Man (mankind) was quite inadequate to the task.

Just who would believe those wretched, greedy, powerhungry whores anyway ? Yet people did in that they were to be held as God's man on earth and were to worship him as if a God. Wealth, weapons and then gunpowder i.e., a monopoly on violence, didn't hurt either.

Using that God, man also created religion which was to establish that the power of God was infinite and held by the church which assumed that power, making [it] as infinite as possible. (they claim once you die, you'll find out buddy) That of course leaves no real proof and no God to query about just how we are really supposed to live. Ask govt. for govt. was based on [a] God...until.....

Aliens were an incredible concept for man to wrap his mind around, so they...called them Gods. It's all very easy...if you wish to believe it all.

YES, yes, if you sincerely believe there is a God, it can be no more or less than a...leap of faith. My whole problem is just looking at these devout Christians, Jews and Muslims, living a life of blatant hypocrisy.

The young boy was unarmed so Zimmerman is...going to hell ? Hardly. OBL, did he go to hell ? No, he went to the bottom of the sea. At least...so we were told. Hitler go to hell ? You see how tricky this all gets ? Those catholic pedophiles...they going to hell and should any of them still be anywhere near the church ?

Religion, the church, observance of the 'word-of-God' and all though out that history...does not inspired confidence that there is any God or religion worth believing in. I see no benefit or purpose to having faith in something imaginary.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 6/19/2013 5:27:37 PM >

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/19/2013 6:43:06 PM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

That is a jumble of false ideas about the Divine.


Or perhaps the Divine itself is a false idea. But either way, none of it can be proven false or true.

(in reply to Rule)
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