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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/21/2013 1:28:43 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		My only issue with religious belief systems in general is that they should be 100% private. I don't really care what causes people to believe what they believe. I just want to be left alone to believe what I believe. And it goes without saying that this implies that these types of beliefs should have no place in setting public policy.

Because I believe faith should be 100% private, I vote NO to monotheism and NO to proselytizing. In other words, no one has all the answers SO EVERYONE NEEDS TO LEAVE OTHERS ALONE. Unfortunately, some religions feel it is their god-given right to impose their god and faith on others (for example Islam). And this is where the trouble begins. There is NEVER any trouble when people just respect what others believe and leave them alone. But if your faith includes monotheism and proselytizing it automatically pits itself against other beliefs. There is conflict from the get go. Some faiths, by definition, simply cannot leave others alone.

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/21/2013 2:41:25 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		FR

My poll hints that only five percent of people are not spiritually aware.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/21/2013 7:32:01 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Happy to explain these complex issues to you anytime

Any notions you may harbor about determinism being the foundation of a religion that requires free will are the product of a disordered mind.

K.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Why do you believe? - 6/21/2013 7:35:38 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I really wish you'd stop quoting him, I end up getting suckered into responding and there's really no point.

Well, yanno, you can't always get what you want. But at least we can agree that any attempt to defend your position is pointless.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Why do you believe? - 6/21/2013 8:04:07 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I really wish you'd stop quoting him, I end up getting suckered into responding and there's really no point.

Well, yanno, you can't always get what you want. But at least we can agree that any attempt to defend your position is pointless.

His clock is running down...


_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 12:53:39 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Science. It goes back further than Religion and is provable.

Please excuse Polite, but science has never established a single fact in its entire history, and is constitutionally incapable of establishing even a single fact. It is a rule of Knowledge, easily demonstrated, that for any given phenomenon, there are a potentially infinite number of correct explanations. This implies that selecting and priveliging one explanation as the exclusive "scientifically proven" explanation for any phenomenon is itself making a magical choice.

The standard of proof in science is initially Risk Analysis (Probability Theory) and thereafter consensus (among the cognoscenti). In many respects a 'belief' in science is no different to believing in a secular religion. Properly speaking Science ought to exclude all 'beliefs' - they are always loaded with cultural values, never objective.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/22/2013 1:15:09 AM >

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 3:33:33 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Science is about observing phenomena, establing facts pertaing to those phenomena, and interpreting those facts, resulting in one or more hypotheses, which are tested until one acquires the status of a theory and thus at least for a while is accepted as a truth.

Are you the person who confuses facts with interpretations? The gibberish in your post suggests that you are. In any case you fail dismally at the philosophy of science.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 4:55:16 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Happy to explain these complex issues to you anytime

Any notions you may harbor about determinism being the foundation of a religion that requires free will are the product of a disordered mind.


There you have hit upon the demented and confused thinking of christians. Glad you finally understand. I didn't make that shit up. The church fathers did.

Your pithy comments seem an attempt to distract from your position implied above that you hold open the possiblity of "something greater." I repeat that without evidence you indulge in magical thinking. And when you cannot defend your position you go on the attack against atheism. Please do tell us how the existence of a universal consciousness you have espoused is any different than the anthropomorphised god of Abraham. The patriarch also heard voices.

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 5:25:19 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
tell us how the existence of a universal consciousness you have espoused is any different than the anthropomorphised god of Abraham.

I have made bold the difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The patriarch also heard voices.

Thus we must conclude that he was not deaf and that he wore no ear mufflers.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 5:25:36 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		Tweakabelle, the escape velocity from earth's gravity is 11.2 km/s and from the moon's 2.4 km/s. Facts established by scientists and engineers.

Science does not privilege one explanation; it falsifies alternatives.

Beliefs in Science? Properly speaking the "beliefs" are tentative theories always subject to revision. The accusation of "beliefs" is made by those who wish to reduce the efficacy of Science as a way of knowing. Science works. Religion and philosophy are wheels spinning in the snows of the past.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 5:26:46 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		Sorry, the correct answer would be that Abraham's god was universal consciousness in drag.

quote:

Thus we must conclude that he was not deaf and that he wore no ear mufflers.

Or he was mad as a Hatter.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/22/2013 5:41:38 AM >

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 5:37:44 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

My only issue with religious belief systems in general is that they should be 100% private. I don't really care what causes people to believe what they believe.



well the us government cares. That is why they cut out the part of your right to "exercise" your religion (destroying all culture) gave you the right to exercise "their religion" but you can believe whatever you damn well please. (as long as you dont exercise it)

quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


hahaha

Resistance is futile! ~The Borg

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 5:48:02 AM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Science is about observing phenomena, establing facts pertaing to those phenomena, and interpreting those facts, resulting in one or more hypotheses, which are tested until one acquires the status of a theory and thus at least for a while is accepted as a truth.

Are you the person who confuses facts with interpretations? The gibberish in your post suggests that you are. In any case you fail dismally at the philosophy of science.



well not facts but repeatable empirical evidence.

truth is always a fact but facts often times have little to do with truth

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 6:12:55 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Your pithy comments seem an attempt to distract from your position implied above that you hold open the possiblity of "something greater."


I don't know, the steady stream of bitterness seems to me to be far too consitent to be the product of such a reasoned thought process. Keep in mind that some people are just stuck that way.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 7:06:47 AM   
Toysinbabeland


Posts: 1693
Joined: 3/4/2012
From: the other end of Cx's leash
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The Argument of the Unmoved Mover

My opposing arguments:

Actually nothing in the universe moves: all movement is an illusion - yet an effective one.

(If that is the case, then you wouldn't mind explaining the resulting energy, perhaps from a well struck match to the foundation of a fire?)t






As for the Divine:'outside' the universe there can be no motion as we understand it, since the dimensions of time and space as we know them do not exist 'there'.

(If you know this as your personal opinion, then you are assuming that the divine already does exist.
What do you base this statement on?) t




A parallel can be drawn with pure water: any chemist knows that a volume of only H2O 'spontaneously' generates other molecules as well. Therefore it is possible to obtain motion from no motion.






(How do you know that wasn't the intention of a Divine, either to supply a need for faith, to vex for pleasure ---It would be a Dominant God.. :) ---, or because it just likes it that way.
The argument of a random variation can go both ways, that it is down to the science, or that one is left with the impression that coincidence is too baffling, and that it becomes a part of a larger plan.)t



(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 7:59:22 AM   
ThatDaveGuy69


Posts: 978
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		The simple explanation for why -most- people believe in some sort of religion is because it is what their parents taught them.
In the absence of such indoctrination, very few adults will accept the claims of any religion. Young children readily accept what their parents tell them. Part of becoming a mature adult is to question what you are told, particularly when there is no emperical evidence to support the statement(s).

I don't really care what anyone believes nor do I care how they got their. All I ask is that you keep it to yourself and not infect politics with it. Saying "the bible/torah/quoran/book of mormon/etc forbids it" is NOT sufficient basis for creating laws that pertain to the entire populace.

As for an actual god as descibed in the many ancient texts, I'm with Epicurus:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Some of my other favorite quotes by very learned individuals:

"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." [Voltaire]
(And let's face it: most claims of god/heaven are VERY absurd!)

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism." [Einstein]

"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
(NAILED it!)

"Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity?" [Arthur C. Clarke]

"Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies." [Thomas Jefferson]

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile." [Kurt Vonnegut]

"Religion is based . . . mainly on fear . . . fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race." [Bertrand Russell]

"Try thinking for yourself once in a while. [ThatDaveGuy]

~Dave


_____________________________

He said I'd blown a seal. I said fix the damn thing and leave my private life out of this!
What happens in the event horizon STAYS in the Event Horizon!
I have zero tolerance for Zero Tolerance

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 11:07:13 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

There you have hit upon the demented and confused thinking of christians.

Well unh, no. What I've "hit upon" is your misrepresentation of the "thinking of christians."

But thanks for playing.

K.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 11:25:07 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

There you have hit upon the demented and confused thinking of christians.

Well unh, no. What I've "hit upon" is your misrepresentation of the "thinking of christians."

But thanks for playing.


Oh please. You deny well known concepts of the christian church. Is the christian god not omnipotent and all knowing? Do christians not believe for the most part that they have free will and are responsible for their sins? Of course they do.

If not, then what? Is this the best you can do? Stick your fingers in your ears and deny historical knowledge? Pity.

So, tell us about universal consciousness and all th evidence you have for it, if that is what you believe, rather than throw darts at atheists.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 11:34:06 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
tell us about universal consciousness and all the evidence you have for it

According to my poll ninety percent of respondents are spiritually aware.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 11:34:35 AM   
wittynamehere


Posts: 759
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
Why do you believe there is a God or no God, heaven or hell.

If "believe" is "to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so" as the dictionary suggests it is, and there is no such thing as "absolute proof" of anything, then EVERYTHING is a belief. In other worse, we believe there's a coffee cup in front of us on the desk, but we can't prove it. We believe we're using a BDSM website right now. We believe the sun will set tonight.

Personally that definition kind of bothers me, although I haven't got a better one at the moment.

But to operate on more layman's terms, why do I believe there is no god? I don't believe that, actually. I just don't believe there IS one. I tend to believe in things for which there is some kind of support. I don't believe in a monster in the closet because there's nothing supporting that fact. Same with faeries, or the seamonster my kid thinks lurks in the pond nearby.

In short, I don't believe something because others believe it, I make up my own mind. And the only evidence that there is a god or gods, is that other people claim to believe in it/them. That's it. No photos, no measurements, no observable data of any kind. If god is out there, it doesn't seem to have any effect on the universe. In other words, it isn't PART of the universe. In other words, it's not there at all.

Prove there's a coffee mug on the desk, and I'll believe it. At least provide a little evidence, and I'll CONSIDER believing it. But to just claim it's there, invisible and unmeasurable in every way? Be my guest, but you sound pretty crazy.

_____________________________

I almost never return to a thread, so if you saw my post and want me to hear your reply, please message it to me.

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