RE: Why do you believe?

RE: Why do you believe? (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/19/2013 7:12:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers God was created by man quote: ORIGINAL: evesgrden Afterlife: denial or arrogance Odd how it's always the believers who are accused of making claims about things they can't possibly know. K.

GotSteel -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/19/2013 8:31:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 I tend to agree with this. I've actually heard some atheists say that they're more at peace with the universe by not believing in God, since they can attribute tragedies and other unfortunate events to simply a matter of random probability. I basically agree with everything you're saying in your post with the exception of the word random. We seem to very much live in a universe of cause and effect. Unfortunately with "acts of God" we're generally looking at complex systems where we don't have all the data, but that doesn't mean that Katrina was random, we've learned how hurricanes form. The view that such things have knowable causes instead of "God works in mysterious unknowable ways" led us to keep looking until we figured it out. That same expectation of cause and effect is what causes us to continually strive to gain a greater understanding of our planets weather which has progressively increased our ability to predict the formation and path of hurricanes thus mitigating the damage of such events. quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 If one believes that there is actually a sentient, intelligent being controlling things from up above, then that can actually make a person more angry and unhappy with that particular being for all the events it has caused or failed to prevent. Even without people getting angry at God, reality noticeably doesn't match the advertising. The cognitive dissonance which results (that cycle of doubt and rationalizations to prop up ones faith) is avoidable. One doesn't have to live with that mental conflict.

Kirata -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/19/2013 11:58:18 PM)
The predicted possible paths of a hurricane are entirely probabilistic and subject to constant updating. Even if it were possible to know literally everything about the state of the universe at a given instant, we still couldn't predict the future from that knowledge. The probability of our predictions failing would increase with every passing moment due to the effects of random fluctuations which are by definition unpredictable. The notion of a classically deterministic universe exists only in the minds of certain perverse atheists whose compulsion to deny the possibility of something greater does not even balk at denying reality itself. K.

Rule -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/20/2013 12:15:37 AM)
Aye.

MrBukani -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/20/2013 1:21:53 AM)
A hurricane is a pretty good example. And you are right K. to say even if you know all of natures forces involved it's still near impossible to predict the path of a hurricane. That's logical because there are so many variables wich influence eachother as moments pass. After the event happened it is possible to see what all variables have done. It is not that science can replace gods as a fortune teller. On the other hand it's the weatherreport through science wich helps us prepare for a storm, not god. What my biggest question is to believers of the abrahamic religions is this. I pose nature is the one supreme god/entity. But when I say this, they often reply that is not god cause god is a seperate being. He is an intelligent creator. So I ask myself what is the pure definition of intelligence. Is it not logical sense? And is nature not bound in all ways to values carved in stone wich cannot be altered? Is that not perfect all encompassing logic and thus intelligence? Wether god made up all laws of nature or nature just is al this in itself, it flows back to the same stem we all need great respect for natures design. With or without a god those laws are always perfect,sacret and divine to me in the supreme sense. I miss that train of thought in a lot of believers who refer to god as him most often in my experience. And that is the most persistent problem in religion imo. The believers who let go of the father principal within abrahamic religion often have more of an open mind to who god really is or can be.

Rule -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/20/2013 2:17:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani What my biggest question is to believers of the abrahamic religions is this. I pose nature is the one supreme god/entity. But when I say this, they often reply that is not god cause god is a seperate being. He is an intelligent creator. They are confused. They confuse the Divine with a particular pagan god. Of course in a sense they are identical, just like a car and its driver in a sense are identical. The universe is separate from the Divine like a kidney is separate from the organism that contains it. quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani I ask myself what is the pure definition of intelligence. Is it not logical sense? Intelligence is an information processing system. Logic is one of the information processing operands. There are others. quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani is nature not bound in all ways to values carved in stone wich cannot be altered? Indeed. The Divine cannot play false. (Though ... well, let's not get distracted into hypotheticals.) quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani Is that not perfect all encompassing logic and thus intelligence? Your question does not compute, makes no sense to me, appears to be illogical blathering. quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani I miss that train of thought in a lot of believers who refer to god as him most often in my experience. And that is the most persistent problem in religion imo. The believers who let go of the father principal within abrahamic religion often have more of an open mind to who god really is or can be. Christian populations are evolving very rapidly. Thus the frequency of open mind alleles in their populations will increase with every generation. There are a notable number of posters in this thread, often atheists, who do not have an open mind.

Rule -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/20/2013 2:31:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers if you sincerely believe there is a God, it can be no more or less than a...leap of faith. The spiritually aware, know. The leap of faith is required from those who are spiritually not aware, who are spiritually blind. Those people are easily identifiable because they are always asking for proof, for evidence. And sometimes they offer to pay in the hopes of acquiring spiritual awareness: quote: Now when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, - Acts 8, 18 saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay my hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. - Acts 8, 19

Toysinbabeland -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/20/2013 4:18:59 AM)
Take it or leave it: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinque_viae I know that I definitely do believe that atheists exist. I think that God exists.

Kirata -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/20/2013 4:59:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland I definitely do believe that atheists exist. I suppose so. But on the other hand, some clearly have a God they despise and reject, and I'm not sure that qualifies. K.

Rule -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/20/2013 5:52:51 AM)
The Argument of the Unmoved Mover My opposing arguments: Actually nothing in the universe moves: all movement is an illusion - yet an effective one. As for the Divine:'outside' the universe there can be no motion as we understand it, since the dimensions of time and space as we know them do not exist 'there'. A parallel can be drawn with pure water: any chemist knows that a volume of only H2O 'spontaneously' generates other molecules as well. Therefore it is possible to obtain motion from no motion.

GotSteel -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/20/2013 8:19:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland Take it or leave it: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinque_viae Have you looked more recently than the 13th century to see why those proofs fail?

vincentML -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/20/2013 11:17:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata The predicted possible paths of a hurricane are entirely probabilistic and subject to constant updating. Even if it were possible to know literally everything about the state of the universe at a given instant, we still couldn't predict the future from that knowledge. The probability of our predictions failing would increase with every passing moment due to the effects of random fluctuations which are by definition unpredictable. The notion of a classically deterministic universe exists only in the minds of certain perverse atheists whose compulsion to deny the possibility of something greater does not even balk at denying reality itself. Determinism is the foundation of religious thinking. It is the classically religious mind who requires a Creator and a Plan. Do not foist that off onto atheists, tyvm. Believing the possiblity of "something greater" for which we have no evidence is magical thinking. Believing it does not make it true. It only shows that men create gods in the gaps of their understanding of nature.

evesgrden -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/20/2013 11:32:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland I definitely do believe that atheists exist. I suppose so. But on the other hand, some clearly have a God they despise and reject, and I'm not sure that qualifies. K. How does one hate something that doesn't exist? Linus could hate The Great Pumpkin for never showing up as expected. I can't hate the Great Pumpkin, I don't believe there is such a thing. Same thing works with theists. They believe in God(s). One who is a/theistic, does not.... so what's to hate?

Kirata -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/20/2013 11:44:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Determinism is the foundation of religious thinking quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Free will is essential to Abrahamic morality Try to keep your story straight or one of these days that fence is gonna hurt ya. K.

jlf1961 -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/20/2013 12:01:01 PM)
I believe because of something that happened when I was quite young. I was born in 61, antibiotics were not as advanced as they are now, I believe they only had penicillin. I developed pneumonia and spent 8 weeks in a military hospital under an oxygen tent. I recovered with no lasting problems except that I am bat shit crazy and I tend to isolate, been that way (according to family) since I got out of the hospital. The doctor gave me a less than 20% chance of survival. That does not mean I take the bible at face value though. I mean creating the universe in seven days, the earth being 6000 years old, sorry dont buy that. Besides, there has to be a god, how else can you explain the women who have perfect bodies without having to work at it and having plastic surgery? Or when a beautiful woman finds me attractive? (Okay that one you could explain away by mental health issues or she being blind) One more point, my son and daughter were both premies, and barely able to survive birth. Son is 26 and daughter is 24. I consider them both miracles.

Rule -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/20/2013 12:18:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 I developed pneumonia and spent 8 weeks in a military hospital under an oxygen tent. I recovered with no lasting problems except that I am bat shit crazy and I tend to isolate, been that way (according to family) since I got out of the hospital. The doctor gave me a less than 20% chance of survival. So like me - bestowing on me my supergenius power - you were changed by Divine intervention. I salute you.

vincentML -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/21/2013 6:09:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Determinism is the foundation of religious thinking quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Free will is essential to Abrahamic morality Try to keep your story straight or one of these days that fence is gonna hurt ya. [:D] Very clever of you. However, not a contradiction by me. The contradiction rests with the believers. Determinism is the essence of the workings of a creator god with a plan for his creation. When there is a plan and the power to carry it out all is determined. How could it be otherwise? Some, Paul and the Calvinists, believe their salvation is predetermined by god's grace. But others like the Catholics believe in good works and punishment of sin. Punishment assumes agency. Hence the belief that man has free will. Otherwise, punishment is not defensible. Happy to explain these complex issues to you anytime [:)]

GotSteel -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/21/2013 7:48:54 AM)
sigh I really wish you'd stop quoting him, I end up getting suckered into responding and there's really no point. Kirata's once again pushing sophestry. Whether or not we'll ever be to predict hurricanes with perfect accuracy is irrelevant to my point. Hurricanes follow the laws of physics, there's no magic involved, they're entirely a matter of cause and effect and are really no more random than dice.

Rule -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/21/2013 8:49:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Hurricanes follow the laws of physics, there's no magic involved, they're entirely a matter of cause and effect and are really no more random than dice. The universe is like a winding down clockwork, eh? Ever increasing in entropy and all that, eh?

MariaB -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/21/2013 9:56:06 AM)
I am agnostic leaning towards Paganism and tonight I will be outside enjoying the summer solstice and celebrating the sunrise. I was brought up a catholic but when there was trouble in the family, instead of our local priest supporting us through those tough times, he berated us and punished us children by making us sit at the back of the church. I went to convent school where the nuns threw holy water over us if we were naughty and told us we were the devils sporn and that the water would burn us. My adoptive grandparents used to take me to Stonehenge during the spring and summer equinox. They were Pagans through and through and although their paganism was never pumped down my throat, I was offered to take from it what I wanted. Like a Pagan, I believe that we spend our life taking from the earth and when we die we give our bodies back to the earth as a gift of nourishment. The science in me believes we never really die completely, because energy cannot be created or destroyed but only converted from one form to another. knowing my luck I will end up as a doorknob into a catholic church!! A lot of people turn to religion in their final days, hours. I believe they do so because the they fear 'nothingness'

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