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RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 11:44:13 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere
it isn't PART of the universe. In other words, it's not there at all.

You are starting to grok the Divine. Well done!

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to wittynamehere)

Post #: 101

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 12:18:29 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Do christians not believe for the most part that they have free will and are responsible for their sins?

Then the religion cannot be founded on determinism as you claimed.

But hey, keep dancing. It's kinda cute.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/22/2013 12:25:22 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 102

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 12:22:48 PM

Rule

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One of the interesting results of my poll is that the only respondents who assert that they are not spiritually aware, are forty percent of the sub respondents - and I seem to recollect that Vincent is a sub...

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 103

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 2:33:05 PM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Do christians not believe for the most part that they have free will and are responsible for their sins?

Then the religion cannot be founded on determinism as you claimed.

But hey, keep dancing. It's kinda cute.

It can be whatever it wants to be. It is a religion, not rocket science.

So, how is that universal consciousness working out for you? Even in rocks as I recall your previous claims.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/22/2013 3:00:04 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 104

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 2:42:10 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

One of the interesting results of my poll is that the only respondents who assert that they are not spiritually aware, are forty percent of the sub respondents - and I seem to recollect that Vincent is a sub...

Spiritual awareness is a thin cloak that hides ignorance and magical thinking. It is nothing I would care to boast of. And whether I am sub or dom has no relevance to this thread, but your raising my kink is the last resort of a shallow debate by you. Rather pathetic tactic. Be assured I am not submissive on this Board.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 105

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 3:32:01 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
So, how is that universal consciousness working out for you? Even in rocks as I recall your previous claims.

The Divine pervades everything - just a 'fraction' beyond the boundary of the universe. But yes, both the rock and empty space are part of the Divine as well - separate parts.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 106

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 4:04:44 PM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
So, how is that universal consciousness working out for you? Even in rocks as I recall your previous claims.

The Divine pervades everything - just a 'fraction' beyond the boundary of the universe. But yes, both the rock and empty space are part of the Divine as well - separate parts.

That makes the assumption that you believe in the devine - which you say in post #4.
In that same post you claim you are not religious and Athiest by nature.
They are mutually exclusive unless you are attributing some other meaning to the word Divine which isn't common.

From Merriam Webster -
Etymology:Middle English divin, from Anglo-French, from Latin divinus, from divus god — more at DEITY
Date:14th century

1 a : of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god *divine love*
b : being a deity *the divine Savior*
c : directed to a deity *divine worship*
.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 107

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 5:02:09 PM

FrostedFlake

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From: Centralia, Washington
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"Believe" is not what I do.

I suggest you not "believe" either.

The most important aspect of "belief" is, when you "Believe you have Answers" you not only stop asking questions, you stop tolerating answers.

Taking a step back and looking at the big picture, there are 10,000 religions on the Earth and all agree on one point in particular. They agree that all the other religions are wrong. The take home point is, NONE can EXPLAIN why everyone else is wrong, yet that all firmly BELIEVE it. In each case, their entire philosophical foundation rests on that single point. So, what kind of knowledge cannot be explained? That's right. Superstition.

THINK, man! ADD something to the sum of human knowledge. Don't just "believe"! "Faith" is the mere capacity to avoid an interesting question. It is the refusal to learn. It is voluntary slavery. It is the act of patronizing a con man. It is an intellectually void, culturally crippling cop out.

Note to the Roman Catholics : You are going to hell, because you are a volunteer. It's your idea. The god you imagine is imaginary. The actual god did not create the Universe so that you could kiss his butt while quivering in fear. Or try to get ME to kiss his butt while quivering in fear of YOU. Unlike priests, god does not have an agenda, or ego problems, or utility bills. Therefore Church and Hell are unnecessary. Therefore do not exist. Unless you create them, out of your imagination. So quit it.

_____________________________

Frosted Flake
simul justus et peccator
Einen Liebhaber, und halten Sie die Schraube

"... evil (and hilarious) !!" Hlen5

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 108

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 5:12:44 PM

Rule

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Actually religions do serve purposes. But this thread is not about religions: it is about belief or non-belief.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to FrostedFlake)

Post #: 109

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 5:27:06 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

Taking a step back and looking at the big picture, there are 10,000 religions on the Earth and all agree on one point in particular. They agree that all the other religions are wrong.

That's not true. You're just making shit up.

K.

(in reply to FrostedFlake)

Post #: 110

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 6:42:56 PM

PeonForHer

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FR

This argument is always and forever a

Attachment (1)

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(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 111

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 6:51:08 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

This argument is always and forever a

To what argument are you referring, precisely?

K.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 112

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 6:56:26 PM

PeonForHer

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Any argument on CM between believers and non-believers.

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(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 113

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 11:26:25 PM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Science is about observing phenomena, establing facts pertaing to those phenomena, and interpreting those facts, resulting in one or more hypotheses, which are tested until one acquires the status of a theory and thus at least for a while is accepted as a truth.

Are you the person who confuses facts with interpretations? The gibberish in your post suggests that you are. In any case you fail dismally at the philosophy of science.

This is the second time you have advanced these ill-informed utterly false claims. Commonly idiots confuse their interpretation of the world (whether Scientific or non-scientific) with 'facts'. There are no facts. There are only arbitrary measurements (because all measuring and classification systems are ultimately arbitrary). As all Scientific Knowledge is built using (arbitrary) classification systems, all Scientific Knowledge is arbitrary. Facts cannot be arbitrary. It is precisely you who is confusing 'facts' with 'interpretation'.

Thus, the "dismal failure at the philosophy of Science" is also all yours. May I refer you to reading the distinguished Philosopher of Science Feyerabend for one authority. It would be far better for all (and especially you) if you read Feyerabend rather than continuing to parade your abysmal ignorance of the Philosophy of Science in public.

quote:

VincentML
Beliefs in Science? Properly speaking the "beliefs" are tentative theories always subject to revision. The accusation of "beliefs" is made by those who wish to reduce the efficacy of Science as a way of knowing. Science works. Religion and philosophy are wheels spinning in the snows of the past.

There is an even stronger articulation of this position which is perfectly intellectually coherent and defensible. It goes as follows:
1. To practice Science, the scientist MUST be objective and value free;
2. No human being is capable of being objective or value free about anything;
3. Therefore it is impossible for any human being to practice Science as it must be practiced according to self-declared rules of Science.

Science has a number of very cute narratives but should never be confused with 'Truth" or 'facts'. To believe that Science can deliver 'Truth' or 'facts' (eg a la Dawkins) is an exercise in self delusion. Magical thinking is required to both produce and sustain this delusion.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/22/2013 11:51:26 PM >

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(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 114

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/22/2013 11:42:48 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

Any argument on CM between believers and non-believers.

Amen.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 115

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/23/2013 12:53:55 AM

Rule

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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
There are no facts. There are only arbitrary measurements

Are you asserting that it is not a fact that you said: "There are no facts. There are only arbitrary measurements"? So now we all have to guess what you said instead? Like for example maybe instead you just called Mod Chi stupid? That ought to earn you a gold rimmed mail. But of course you will then claim that it is not a fact that that mail is gold rimmed because that is just an arbitrary measurement, and that it actually is a blue rimmed mail that sang a lullaby in the sweet tones of the Klingon language?

I suspect that you will also claim that it is not a fact that pigs don't fly? Your world must be filled with flying pigs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
There are no facts. There are only arbitrary measurements (because all measuring and classification systems are ultimately arbitrary).

Facts cannot be arbitrary.

If there are no facts, it is impossible - and therefore madness - to attribute them with the property that they cannot be arbitrary.

Nor would it then make sense to attribute food with the attribute of being edible. So each time that you are eating, you simply are deluding yourself that your body and mind profit by it. I recommend that you do not eat nor drink at all as that would not make sense. You do not want people to see you indulge in such crazy behavior as eating and drinking, do you?
But of course I suspect that you will tell yourself that it is not a fact that those other people exist, so that actually no-one will observe that you indulge in the crazy behavior of eating and drinking.
Perhaps you are even more sophisticated and assert that since the existence of food and drink is not a fact, then assuredly eating and drinking is not a fact either so that when you indulge in eating and drinking you actually are not eating and drinking.

Hm, maybe that Muslim was right when he claimed that he did not murder those people because he was a Muslim and Muslims do not murder people and that therefore he could not be a murderer.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 116

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/23/2013 12:57:54 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Spiritual awareness is a thin cloak that hides ignorance and magical thinking.

Actually, that is exactly what your unsupported (and insulting as usual) claims amount to. One definition of spiritual awareness encompasses an awareness of the non-local effects of consciousness. You will recall me saying:

Even if it were possible to know literally everything about the state of the universe at a given instant, we still couldn't predict the future from that knowledge. The probability of our predictions failing would increase with every passing moment due to the effects of random fluctuations

It has been convincingly and repeatedly demonstrated that consciousness can influence random fluctuations and alter the course of events, your ignorant belief in the magical reality constructed by your prejudice notwithstanding.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/23/2013 1:06:36 AM >

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 117

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/23/2013 4:53:02 AM

MrBukani

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I think some people should read up on Plato and find out what Socrates had to say about absolute truth. The science that explains nature is based on this concept.
It is also the key to wisdom and development of intelligence.

We make things as humans.
Is this unnatural or is everything a part of nature? And to what extend?
And I aint talkin natural food now, cause in these days of misunderstanding, most people don't even know the difference between organic and biological food.
So this is the first and foremost problem to solve in society, to define words and concepts to their natural meaning. So we can all understand.

The question was why do you believe, not why is your belief better then mine.
It is for people to see other values and emotions and logical patterns.
Most of us are pretty set in their ways anyway.
And I am surprised to see some answers wich I didn't expect.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 118

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/23/2013 5:31:25 AM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The Argument of the Unmoved Mover

My opposing arguments:

Actually nothing in the universe moves: all movement is an illusion - yet an effective one.

(If that is the case, then you wouldn't mind explaining the resulting energy, perhaps from a well struck match to the foundation of a fire?)t

The analogy is wrong, because a struck match releases already stored potential energy.

What actually occurs is an application of Newton's Third Law of Motion:

quote:

The third law states that all forces exist in pairs:

Suppose that we have a drum and that the centerpoint of the skin starts to vibrate spontaneously in an oscillating motion. The total energy of an oscillating motion is zero. (I intuit; you may call my bluff on that.)

Hence no energy is produced.

This vibration will communicate itself to all other parts of the skin. Not just in one direction, but in all directions. Thus again the total energy of the vibration is zero. Now if the vibration would be communicated only to one direction of the skin - like north - then we would have a net positive or negative energy; but that does not happen.

This propagation of the vibration from the centerpoint to the edges of the skin creates the illusion of motion. But the reality is that no part of the skin actually moves from its proper location at distance x from the centerpoint.

Hence my assertion.

< Message edited by Rule -- 6/23/2013 5:35:31 AM >

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to Toysinbabeland)

Post #: 119

RE: Why do you believe? - 6/23/2013 5:46:58 AM

Rule

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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
As for the Divine:'outside' the universe there can be no motion as we understand it, since the dimensions of time and space as we know them do not exist 'there'.

(If you know this as your personal opinion, then you are assuming that the divine already does exist.
What do you base this statement on?) t

Grokking one of the natural constants of the universe; I forgot which one.

In any case time, space, energy and matter as we know them are inherent and defining properties of the two universes. They only apply in that part of Reality (= the Divine).

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to Toysinbabeland)

Post #: 120

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