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Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/13/2013 8:36:43 AM   
tazzygirl


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This is the National Bill pushed through by an all male panel.



Since the Supreme Court’s controversial decision in Roe v. Wade in 1973, medical knowledge regarding the development of unborn babies and their capacities at various stages of growth has advanced dramatically. Even the New York Times has reported on the latest research on unborn pain, focusing in particular on the research of Dr. Sunny Anand, an Oxford-trained neonatal pediatrician who has held appointments at Harvard Medical School and other distinguished institutions.

According to the New York Times: Twenty-five years ago … [d]octors were convinced that newborns’ nervous systems were too immature to sense pain ... Anand resolved to find out if this was true. In a series of clinical trials, he demonstrated that operations performed under minimal or no anesthesia produced a “massive stress response” in newborn babies, releasing a flood of fight-or-flight hormones like adrenaline and cortisol. Potent anesthesia, he found, could significantly reduce this reaction ... But Anand was not through with making observations. [He] noticed that even the most premature babies grimaced when pricked by a needle … New evidence, however, has persuaded him that fetuses can feel pain by 20 weeks gestation … and possibly earlier.

As Dr. Anand would later testify: “If the fetus is beyond 20 weeks of gestation, I would assume that there will be pain caused to the fetus. And I believe it will be severe and excruciating pain.”

Congress has the power to acknowledge these developments by enacting H.R. 1797 and prohibiting abortions after the point at which scientific evidence shows the unborn can feel pain, with limited exceptions.

The terrifying facts uncovered during the course of the trial of late-term abortionist Kermit Gosnell, and successive reports of similar atrocities committed across the country, remind us how an atmosphere of insensitivity can lead to horrific brutality. The grand jury report in the Gosnell case itself contains references to a neonatal expert who reported that the cutting of the spinal cords of babies intended to be late-term aborted would cause them, and I quote, “a tremendous amount of pain.” These facts justify expanding the application of this bill nationwide, and I fully support Constitution Subcommittee Chairman Franks’ intention to do so.

Indeed, the Polling Company recently found that 64% of Americans would support a law such as the Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act. Only 30% would oppose it. And supporters include 47% of those who identified themselves as “pro-choice” in the poll.

In the 2007 case of Gonzales v. Carhart, the Supreme Court made clear that -- and I quote -- “The government may use its voice and its regulatory authority to show its profound respect for the life within the woman,” and that Congress may show such respect for the unborn through “specific regulation because it implicates additional ethical and moral concerns that justify a special prohibition.”

Justice Kennedy, who wrote the majority opinion in the Carhart case, also wrote that the government has “an interest in forbidding medical procedures which, in the [government’s] reasonable determination, might cause the medical profession or society as a whole to become insensitive, even disdainful, to life, including life in the human fetus ... even life which cannot survive without the assistance of others.”

As the New York Times story concluded, throughout history “a presumed insensitivity to pain has been used to exclude some from humanity’s privileges and protections … Over time, the charmed circle of those considered alive to pain, and therefore fully human, has widened to include members of other religions and races, the poor, the criminal, the mentally ill — and, thanks to the work of Sunny Anand and others, the very young.”

The Gosnell trial reminds us that when newborn babies are cut with scissors, they whimper and cry, and flinch from pain. But it takes only a moment's thought to realize that wherever babies are cut, they whimper and cry, and flinch from pain. Delivered or not, babies are babies, and they can feel pain at 20 weeks. It is time to welcome young children who can feel pain into the human family. And this bill, at last, will do just that.

I congratulate Chairman Franks on this vital legislation, and look forward to hearing from all our witnesses today.


http://judiciary.house.gov/news/2013/05232013.html

Fetal pain acknowledged in Minnesota law

Woman's Right to Know requires women considering abortion to be informed that "some experts have concluded that the unborn child feels physical pain after 20 weeks gestation."

The Unborn Child Pain Prevention Act requires women considering abortion after 20 weeks gestation to be informed "whether or not an anesthetic or analgesic would eliminate or alleviate organic pain to the unborn child caused by the particular method of abortion to be employed."


http://www.mccl.org/pain-capable-unborn-child-protection-act.html

Of the vote FRC President Tony Perkins said:

"The recent murder trial of abortionist Kermit Gosnell and his horrific practice of late-term abortion shows that the United States needs a law to protect babies that can feel pain. At 20 weeks a developing baby can experience pain like any fully grown human being. Across the country, abortion clinics – though maybe not as filthy as Kermit Gosnell's – still cruelly abort babies who are fully capable of feeling their painful and violent deaths.

"To know what is right and not do it is wrong. Doctors and scientists recognize that unborn babies can feel pain at 20 weeks of age. To allow such babies to continue to be aborted is wrong.

"While Americans are divided on abortion, we are united on the rights of the pain-capable unborn. Gallup has found that 64 percent of Americans support protecting babies in the second trimester. We call on Congress to respect the views of their constituents and pass the national Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act."


http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/frc-urges-passage-of-pain-capable-unborn-child-protection-act-210145591.html

Here is the actual bill.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112hr3803rh/pdf/BILLS-112hr3803rh.pdf

Why is this dangerous? They left a massive back door to walk the Roe vs Wade decision further back at any point they can get enough physicians to agree with them that a fetus can feel pain at any stage in development. In essence, they are saying "At 20 weeks, its a good chance your fetus can feel pain, so you cant hurt it." Later on, they can come back with "Well, we discovered, with the advancement of medicine, that at 2 weeks, the fetus can feel pain...."

I have no doubt this bill wont become a law. But those who staunchly insist that there is not a war on women... are fucking wrong.

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/13/2013 9:00:02 AM   
Lucylastic


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and fucking stupid,
I linked to this on the other thread
http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2013/06/ohio_house_republicans_propose.html


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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/13/2013 9:07:16 AM   
tazzygirl


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Require doctors to tell patients seeking abortions in writing how much money they earn and how much income they would lose by not performing abortions.

Eliminate "medical necessity" as a reason to waive the waiting period. Medical necessity had been defined as a medical condition that complicates the pregnancy so that it warrants an immediate abortion.


Based on those two alone, it wont pass a challenge.

The sheer waste of money on these types of bills should be enough to piss off any "fiscal conservative"

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/13/2013 9:16:25 AM   
Lucylastic


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and yet...
almost 2000 bills since 2010, they keep coming and getting shot down
a vicious cycle that just alienates more and more women.

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/13/2013 12:20:14 PM   
truckinslave


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Riiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt.
We cannot kill mass murdeers because some asshat posits that the procedures cause the thug a twinge.


But we sure as hell can kill innocent life regardless of how much pain it causes.

Sick sick sick

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/13/2013 12:22:47 PM   
DaddySatyr


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It's part of the Lying Liberal Lunatic Left's "War on Children (and America)".



Peace and comfort,



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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/13/2013 12:23:41 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Riiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt.
We cannot kill mass murdeers because some asshat posits that the procedures cause the thug a twinge.


But we sure as hell can kill innocent life regardless of how much pain it causes.

Sick sick sick


Now you are getting it!



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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/13/2013 3:28:45 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Riiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt.
We cannot kill mass murdeers because some asshat posits that the procedures cause the thug a twinge.


But we sure as hell can kill innocent life regardless of how much pain it causes.

Sick sick sick

And all of those "lives" are decided on by the single person who is carrying the possible life, not decided on by a bunch of government assholes. or people who will never know what its like to have a pregnancy, or know what the individual women are going thru.


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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/13/2013 4:07:42 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

It's part of the Lying Liberal Lunatic Left's "War on Children (and America)".



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Total bollocks...... I hope thats clear enough.

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/13/2013 10:30:41 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Riiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt.
We cannot kill mass murdeers because some asshat posits that the procedures cause the thug a twinge.


But we sure as hell can kill innocent life regardless of how much pain it causes.

Sick sick sick

And all of those "lives" are decided on by the single person who is carrying the possible life, not decided on by a bunch of government assholes. or people who will never know what its like to have a pregnancy, or know what the individual women are going thru.


This.


And to all those who seek to impose their personal morality on a woman's right to choose, I return the message in its simplest and most direct form, "F U 2".

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/14/2013 12:59:53 PM   
cordeliasub


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This is an interesting idea........I guess

Here is the overarching question for me:

Is it "right" to intentionally inflict pain (I am not speaking about the BDSM genre here)?

For example, is Suzie appalled when an animal is abused or a litter of puppies is drowned because the owner can't handle more dogs, or the inhumane way that chickens are slaughtered? If so, it would seem to take a bit of cognitive dissonance to decry these things but be unfazed by the pain a human would experience. So for me the key would be consistency. I would find it....interesting for someone to be a militant member of PETA and march to "save the trees" and be against fishing because they might feel pain.....but get all defensive about it being perfectly fine for a baby who has not yet been born to feel the pain of being burned or dismembered or whatnot.

Otherwise it smacks of self-interest and hypocrisy.

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 5:18:37 AM   
Lucylastic


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There is a LOT of self interest and hypocrisy on all sides of that thought Cordelia, having had more than a few pregnancies, no body is more self interested in than a woman that is pregnant, but the only other interest I want in my womb, is my doc, and my hubby.There is a huge debate on the "fact" of feeling pain. Reaction to stimuli, certainly, ,anyone who has been pregnant knows that the fetus reacts inside the womb to all kinds of things, but pain is still one of those hotly debated issues.
Taking your suzi example, Im against animal abuse, Im against anyone in pain being brought more pain, mental and physical, but you cannot escape it in life. but that is not my rationale for abortion, more a plain fact.
Im not a militant member of Peta or ELF or any other "extremist" group, Ive killed more fish than I can think of, Ive even boiled lobsters, skinned a rabbit, baked a hedgehog and eaten them.
But honestly, the pain of being dismembered and burned?? that is dramatic and self interested emotion and disregards the incubator who actually has more right to be considered than whats in her body.
Im not immune to the thoughts of unneccesary suffering by the fetus at all, and Im not knocking your opinion, truly, I just think there is more to the issue than the "suffering" that happens in 0.001% of abortions.
Yes we have all heard horror stories by uncaring, money hungry, ignorant doctors, parents etc, and they need to be stopped and jailed.
I find the hypocrisy of feeling pain for a fetus while it is in the womb but not caring how hurt or hungry or abused a child is when it is living outside the womb. (especially ignoring the poverty, illness and other problems faced by parents raising them after they are born). to be more horrendous...
but thats just my opinion:)


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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 5:29:47 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

I find the hypocrisy of feeling pain for a fetus while it is in the womb but not caring how hurt or hungry or abused a child is when it is living outside the womb. (especially ignoring the poverty, illness and other problems faced by parents raising them after they are born). to be more horrendous...


The height of hypocrisy....

Care about it while its in the womb.....

Not give a damn about it after its out.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 5:39:14 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I find the hypocrisy of feeling pain for a fetus while it is in the womb but not caring how hurt or hungry or abused a child is when it is living outside the womb. (especially ignoring the poverty, illness and other problems faced by parents raising them after they are born). to be more horrendous...


The height of hypocrisy....

Care about it while its in the womb.....

Not give a damn about it after its out.



And you know for a fact that those who appose abortion stop caring about the kid after it's born? Just how do you judge something like that? Do you follow the anti abortionists around and watch how they interact with kids? Do they go around and try to stop any kind of aid that might be aimed at children?

I keep hearing this same statement but I have never heard any facts to back it up.

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 5:43:17 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

This is an interesting idea........I guess

Here is the overarching question for me:

Is it "right" to intentionally inflict pain (I am not speaking about the BDSM genre here)?

For example, is Suzie appalled when an animal is abused or a litter of puppies is drowned because the owner can't handle more dogs, or the inhumane way that chickens are slaughtered? If so, it would seem to take a bit of cognitive dissonance to decry these things but be unfazed by the pain a human would experience. So for me the key would be consistency. I would find it....interesting for someone to be a militant member of PETA and march to "save the trees" and be against fishing because they might feel pain.....but get all defensive about it being perfectly fine for a baby who has not yet been born to feel the pain of being burned or dismembered or whatnot.

Otherwise it smacks of self-interest and hypocrisy.



Ok I laugh at those folks myself. My personal favorite was the girl in the prochoice shirt who was having a fit because someone suggested she eat an egg. She made it very clear that she would never eat a "chicken fetus", that was just unthinkable. After all that baby chick has a right to a happy life too, the human fetus, well we all know that's not a child yet.



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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 5:46:28 AM   
tazzygirl


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Just how the hell did you take my post about a Political movement and make it about every person within that movement?

You want facts?

School funding has been cut... lets get rid of school's all together according to some.
Welfare which feeds these kids have been cut....
School lunches to be cut....
Insurance.... lets not even get into that....
You need more to point directly to my statement?

ETA

Does no one read or listen to the news anymore?
Does no one know what is happening to the most vulnerable of our society?
Or does no one just not give a damn whats happening as these fucking so called ligislatures all across the country are cutting this program and that program while wanting to boost spending on the military...or invest more in running for office.. or giving more tax breaks totheir business buddies.

FFS

Dont tell me you need proof. Open your eyes

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 6/15/2013 5:51:11 AM >


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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 5:54:27 AM   
ThatDaveGuy69


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And let's not forget that many of these anti-abortion types are also VERY pro-death penalty. So for them, it's really just a matter of timing.


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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 6:10:39 AM   
tazzygirl


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~FR

/rant

Has anyone.... ANYONE... given a thought to what would happen if these bills got pushed through and were allowed to stand? No abortions? for any reason? Lets not even discuss back street abortions.

Lets talk about needing increased spending in 6 - 10 years... for schools.. for teachers.. for lunches... for insurance... how many more single mothers will we have.... how many more courts will we need for child support?.... how many more on TANF?... how many more on food stamps? ... how much is this "push" to prevent a woman from exercising her rights going to cost the country?

800,000 abortions a year.. for various reasons. I wish that wasnt the case.

2010....

Number of births: 3,999,386

so, out of 5 million pregnancies, not including spontaneous miscarriages....

16% end up in miscarriage.

To damn many.

How many more would there have been had the availability of the morning after pill not been available? Who the hell knows. But even half that amount...

Imagine... in less than 10 years... a 16% increase in the population every year. Because, as we all know, most women who get abortions are not using it as birth control... they arent getting an abortion each month.

And yet they want to cut programs that support these "fetuses" after they are born

So, forgive me if I have the attitude that I think they care while its inside... but fuck them when its out.

Want to stop this? Push to make more effective birth control. No woman WANTS an abortion.

/end fucking rant


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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 6:15:13 AM   
Lucylastic


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ok we get not all republicans hate children not all republicans are bigots or racists or haters or what the fuck ever
can you offer anything up to the discussion apart from that???
If it offends you.... say so but quit whinging, and show your reasoning behind YOUR difference, because your straw is beginning to mold


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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 10:20:14 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

Just how the hell did you take my post about a Political movement and make it about every person within that movement?


Actually this part of the thread started with Suzie, now could you please explain when the political movement came into play?


quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

This is an interesting idea........I guess

Here is the overarching question for me:

Is it "right" to intentionally inflict pain (I am not speaking about the BDSM genre here)?

For example, is Suzie appalled when an animal is abused or a litter of puppies is drowned because the owner can't handle more dogs, or the inhumane way that chickens are slaughtered? If so, it would seem to take a bit of cognitive dissonance to decry these things but be unfazed by the pain a human would experience. So for me the key would be consistency. I would find it....interesting for someone to be a militant member of PETA and march to "save the trees" and be against fishing because they might feel pain.....but get all defensive about it being perfectly fine for a baby who has not yet been born to feel the pain of being burned or dismembered or whatnot.

Otherwise it smacks of self-interest and hypocrisy.



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