RE: The real risks

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SirRussellP -> RE: The real risks (6/15/2013 7:53:16 PM)
LIfe in its self is hard mentally for most of us so doing mentally harm on purpose is to be avoided. Now I love getting into their head, I have this very large paddle,0 made for a sport I don't play, but it makes the greatest sound at impact. This makes the slave feel she has been hit much harder then has been. Also love the look when I slap a set of handcuffs on her and she hears the locking sound. That is playing with her head just as sensory depriving does. Take away sound, sight even smell means her body needs some sort of stimulation, which makes any touch more intense. Russell

Missokyst -> RE: The real risks (6/15/2013 9:17:54 PM)
BB.. that is a beautiful line. quote: ORIGINAL: BambiBoi I held her heart in my hands. Inexplicably, I tore it to shreds.

BambiBoi -> RE: The real risks (6/15/2013 10:14:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst BB.. that is a beautiful line. quote: ORIGINAL: BambiBoi I held her heart in my hands. Inexplicably, I tore it to shreds. I sheepishly admit that I whittled it down from a paragraph, with this exact goal in mind... So thank you.... Despite being tongue in cheek, this thread is a great opportunity to reflect on how easily psychological or emotional damage can be caused. Not only are the stressors of love involved, but it is aggravated by the special near0fiduciary relationship of power exchange. When I broke her heart I stopped being a dominant. Now I just top for funsies. It's been years and I don't know if I'll ever go back.

Missokyst -> RE: The real risks (6/15/2013 10:30:42 PM)
Good job then. I know I have had more emotional damage done in doing this stuff than I have ever felt physically. It is why I step out and why I find it so difficult to trust anyone.

Charles6682 -> RE: The real risks (6/15/2013 11:02:23 PM)
For me,my risks have been when I have blurred fantasy with reality. I have certainly made that mistake before. The last time I did any kind of "session", I was being dominated by 3 sadistic Women. For me, I thought this was going to be a dream cometrue and in many ways, it certainly was. But when reality was about to set in, I was starting to wonder what the hell I gotten myself into. Those 3 girls dominated me like I had never experienced before and it lasted for hours. I couldn't even keep track of time. I was literally in tear's finally because it was too much for me to bear but reality finally set in. I got what I wanted and I was certainly in "subspace" like never before. Only once the "subspace" started to wear off and the pain started to settle in. I guess I got what I wanted and maybe I bit off more than I could chew. I told my "Mistress" she could do whatever it is she wanted to me. From now I,I have told her if I have any problems,that I will let her know beforehand. I let my fantasies get the best of me and then when reality it,it was nothing like what I expected. Another lesson learned the hard way. I don't want tp call it "submissive" remorse because part of me loved every moment of it. I just need to know my own limits first, so I don't get ahead of myself the next time.

SimplyMichael -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 8:26:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael The other I have with RACK vs SSC is they both are aimed at largely non existant problems. How many threads have we had here in the last year about first person injuries? VS. How many threads about emotional damage? All this hand wringing over injuries that rarely happen verses almost no national attention on the most destructive aspect of bdsm, the emotional "accidents" that tear apart people's self esteem and ability to trust. Just thought I needed to repost this since clearly some people post without understanding the actual topic... That of the risks we ACTUALLY face, the physical is overemphasized and the mental and emotional aspects are underemphasized.

njlauren -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 10:05:38 AM)
The emotional risks are just as real, and in fact can be worse, given how much power our emotions and mental health have over us. Someone could do a pretty intense caning on me, take me where I had never been, and while I might be sore and have some processing to do, I would be okay. On the other hand, if someone tied me up then put a full hood on me and just left me like that, didn't respond to my safeword, whatever, it could potentially drive me into a psychotic state or worse (I am claustrophobic and have problems with things like that, I can't do sensory deprivation because of it), it is very real, and if someone pushed that limit I would be in trouble. Likewise, IME the issue about blowing through limits is not the physical aspects of it, or even whatever it is that is done , but rather it is about the emotional affect of someone you trust betraying you, and the results can range from being angry and hurt, to literally driving someone off the deep end into depression. It is kind of like when someone cheats on a partner in a monagamous relationship, the biggest damage is that the person had sex with someone else, rejecting the other partner, it was the lack of trust/betrayal in what the person did. With trans people in relationships, often the biggest damage believe it or not is hubby saying "I want to be a girl", it is the feeling that the other person betrayed them, lied to them, etc (which may or may not be the truth, but it is the dominant perception). And quite frankly, with edge play IME (and that is all it is, my experience), often the most severe damage when play goes to the edge and beyond, is in the emotional trauma on the sub and the break in the relationship, not the physical effects.

LadyPact -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 10:30:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael The other I have with RACK vs SSC is they both are aimed at largely non existant problems. How many threads have we had here in the last year about first person injuries? VS. How many threads about emotional damage? All this hand wringing over injuries that rarely happen verses almost no national attention on the most destructive aspect of bdsm, the emotional "accidents" that tear apart people's self esteem and ability to trust. Just thought I needed to repost this since clearly some people post without understanding the actual topic... That of the risks we ACTUALLY face, the physical is overemphasized and the mental and emotional aspects are underemphasized. Personally, I don't happen to agree with the part that I highlighted above. I've got three thoughts on the matter. The first is how I perceive your stance on the physical to begin with. This isn't the first time around that you've brought up discussions on how rare you believe physical injuries to be when compared to how often folks participate in BDSM. In the past, you've made your position very clear that you believe unintentional physical harm in BDSM is relatively low and what comes across as your belief that the minor stuff isn't a big deal. Now, I'm actually with you on some of that. There are times that it does get exaggerated somewhat and no, I don't personally know anybody that's had to do an ER trip because somebody wrapped them with a flogger. The second is I don't believe your assessment is correct that there isn't a lot of material on these boards about the emotional/mental aspect of being involved in dynamics, particularly if you are going to get into the territory of what happens when a dynamic ends. Maybe I'm seeing stuff that you aren't seeing because you tend to go back and forth about participation here, as opposed to the other site, but I think we get our share. As for the third, I really hope you're not going for that 'better, deeper, somehow more significant' mental/emotional aspect of a kink relationship as opposed to your everyday, garden variety vanilla one. Too often, I think people want to pull this one because a) they've never had a fulfilling vanilla relationship to make the comparison or b) they want to insinuate the aftermath of a failed dynamic somehow hurts more than the end of a long term vanilla relationship because the kink makes it "special" in some way. I don't think it's a competition between kinky folks and non kinky folks of better or worse when it comes to things like broken trust, etc. Almost in the same way that BDSM types who enjoy scenes that play more on the emotional/mental want to believe themselves 'deeper' than those who enjoy the physical aspects because the first group wants to believe themselves better or more elite in some way.

lilcracker -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 10:34:19 AM)
Michael, I have over the years often thought the emotional risks were much higher. When it comes to SSC more focus is on the physical and rarely the emotional mental end of it. And when it comes to the physical end of it, I think more focus is put on making sure the Top/Dom know how to safely use a flogger or a paddle but has no idea if he/she has ever been tested for an STD and doesn't make a big deal out of the fact that no glove is used when sex happens.

descrite -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 11:11:30 AM)
When someone can point to an emotional-pain metric, I will take this into consideration. Until that time, I will worry about it exactly as much as I worry about space aliens and ghosts and goblins and gods.

SimplyMichael -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 11:15:59 AM)
In the context of both SSC, RACK, and all the rest, the emphasis is on physical issues. One looks at the presentation given at kink events and again, the vast majority are about physical safety and technical skills with the occasional shitty class on how to do a "real" kinko relationship but very few about the basic underflying foundation skioills needed to create ANY relationship. Considering just the posts on CM I have seen here over the last six some years, the vast majority of posts asking for help would not be helped by better technical skills, improved safety, or anything else OTHER than improved basic relationship skills. SO...since its clear that the real issue isnt safety, but relationship, why the emphasis on safety acronyms? I think that it is because that teaching technical skills is easy and requires very little. Chest thumping on safety requires even less. Clearly, physical safety IS important, understanding the skills required to use implements well IS something that people should know. However, since you and I have both been active in the larger scene, attended and taught at large scale events, we have a pretty decent perspective on the scene. How many people have you seen need medical attention past first aid and required actual medical attention? How many have you seen that had their self confidence destroyed, their personal lives unravel, friends and family torn apart after relationships blew apart? Unless your experience has been VASTLY different than mine, I have never had to call 911 nor been anyplace where that was needed while I was there. Now to address the emphasis on physical over emotional safety disparity in TALK, one would need to have ambulances double parked with their motors running, LOL! Now I am not against teaching skills and safety, nor against the concepts of SCC and RACK, simply trying to throw a bit of reality on the sacred alter of "safety"...

LadyPact -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 12:31:13 PM)
Michael, the thing is, what you are advocating here isn't any different than what it is in the vanilla world. How many times have I heard you say that you specifically avoid a certain section of female submissives because, and I could darn near quote you on this, in your opinion they don't have the maturity to have the type of relationship that you require. I don't see that as a kink issue. That's a people issue. I think it's littlewonder that has it as a part of her sig line. "If you suck at vanilla relationships, you'll suck at kinky ones, too." For that matter, look at your own. The "great relationship" part isn't necessarily based on the authority level. It's based on two people knowing how to interact with each other. If I recall correctly, that's something that you have discussed at length about yourself. Yet, none of this is really any different than the vanilla world just because our side of the fence has kink thrown in. The same resource material on how to have better relationships works just as well for the marriage that MP and I have where there's no dynamic in place as it does for you when you have a partner where there is a dynamic in place. It's not the power that makes the relationship. It's the people and their actual relationship skills. It's not a kink oriented thing. I just happen to think that those same relationship skills that work for vanilla people are the same ones that work for kinky people, too.

SimplyMichael -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 12:52:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I just happen to think that those same relationship skills that work for vanilla people are the same ones that work for kinky people, too. Yes, I agree. So, can I assume that because those basic skills are vanilla that you think the "scene" has no need to address them and that the emphasis on kink skills and safety should be our only concern and thus the focus on SCC and RACK? Or did you have some other point I missed?

LadyPact -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 1:30:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Yes, I agree. So, can I assume that because those basic skills are vanilla that you think the "scene" has no need to address them and that the emphasis on kink skills and safety should be our only concern and thus the focus on SCC and RACK? Or did you have some other point I missed? Sorry. I'm lagging a bit this morning/afternoon. No, I think it's more My thought process of those resources on how to have healthy relationships are also available through other venues on education. In most cases, with better time allotments to address specific kinds of issues. Often, taught by those who have done far more research on the matter from a psychological standpoint. (This is not to say anything against those in the lifestyle who do have such backgrounds and do teach on these matters.) In some cases, the vanilla resources can be better and still be applied to those with alternative lifestyles. Personally, I've done the "why our relationship works for us" gig in ninety minutes and it's really tough to encompass the entire scope. Also, I don't particularly find any of it to be "new" information that isn't done extensively elsewhere. The part that you can't necessarily find elsewhere are the technical skills as they get applied as they do in play. Not unless you're going to find each vanilla equivalent and do various courses in different fields. I think people attend kink related educational events to find those types of opportunities in one central location.

njlauren -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 1:35:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: descrite When someone can point to an emotional-pain metric, I will take this into consideration. Until that time, I will worry about it exactly as much as I worry about space aliens and ghosts and goblins and gods. No metric, but the fact that therapists and psychologists practice their trade, and real life is full of stories of the effects of broken up relationships, people committing suicide over purely emotional things, it is pretty strong evidence about how painful emotional pain is..not to mention, if you have ever been around people who are abused and see the kinds of things it can do to them, the physical reactions to emotional trauma which includes physical pain, paralysis, it doesn't take metrics to indicate how powerful emotional pain is.

njlauren -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 1:54:34 PM)
I agree that much of what make up vanilla relationships, like trust, honesty, communication and so forth, is the same thing in any relationship, including a D/s. Where I think it differs is that in certain forms of D/s or BD/SM relationships, the need to do these things well is enhanced. In a monogamous relationship cheating is an emotional barn burner, in the kink world I think there are more minefields around trust and honesty, because of how intense some relationships are in the kink world. When you do edge play, the sub and dom better be able to communicate well, read each other, and not be afraid to be honest, because without that, you are looking for trouble if a scene goes south, both physical and mental IME. A 24/7 TPE requires a lot of trust, and honesty, for it to succeed, and I think you can get away with a lot more in a vanilla relationship in this area then you could in a TPE (just my opinion). A poly takes many of these things in spades, having read the threads on the poly forum and from what I have seen, it can be a veritable emotional minefield if the people aren't open and honest, for example. The reason they don't teach relationship dynamics that much is in part because you don't learn those things in a 90 minute workshop easily, when couples go into therapy it can take a long time for them to learn what it is about, and then more time to get them into their lives. You can teach a course in basic knots or using needles in play in an hour or two, relationship stuff is much deeper, it would be more like a course in relationship dynamics would be pretty much "okay, here is an outline of what it takes in my experience to have a BD/SM relationship", and in the time they have, would be an outline. About the best they could do maybe would be to emphasize that the perils of something like trust being broken may be worse in a BD/SM relationship or whatever, but beyond that, it gets too complicated IMO. I have heard people give the secrets to a successful relationship, and the problem also is, it varies from person to person, too:).

DesFIP -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 2:20:44 PM)
So Michael, are you seriously suggesting that no one, vanilla or kinky, ever have a relationship because when it ends they will be hurt? And the longer the relationship lasts, the more it will hurt. God forbid you maintain a successful marriage for 50 years, because you will be devastated when your spouse dies. This is part and parcel of having a relationship. The more you invest in it, the more the ending will hurt you. Conversely, avoiding relationships gives you an equal amount of hurt by never loving or being loved.

SimplyMichael -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 2:53:14 PM)
Des, Is that really what you think my point is?

cloudboy -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 3:07:34 PM)
There is no simple code to guard against emotional injuries, whereas protecting someone from physical injuries is straight forward. Assault, battery, negligence, and abuse are all legal claims, whereas "he hurt my feelings" is not. "He hurt my feelings" is the realm of the CMMB, whereas serious injuries are redressed by the civil and criminal justice systems. Folks that are "different" and "vulnerable" undergo the risks you identify in elementary and middle school -- and hopefully develop selective ways to bond with others who won't abuse them as adults. It all starts with Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.

Greta75 -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 4:16:51 PM)
I think in every relationship, there are emotional risks. Once you care about a person, there are emotional risks. People can't hurt you emotionally if you don't care for their opinions.

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