RE: The real risks

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descrite -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 5:34:58 PM)
quote: the fact that therapists and psychologists practice their trade It's funny that you mention that; an article about the arbitrary nature of the mental illness trade in the latest issue of Reason (not online yet, or I would link to it) was exactly the impetus for my comment. cloudboy nailed it: "He hurt my feelings" mean something different to everyone, and nobody can place a measure or value on it. Some people shrug it off that night. Some people kill themselves. It's kind of impossible to have any training/rules/references/classes/course of action related to something amorphous and subjective...so OP's notion of addressing this "danger" would be impossible or ridiculous-- I know how long it takes for a human brain to be damaged by lack of oxygen; I have no way of knowing what might cause that same brain's "feelings" to be "hurt" to such an extent that it would choose to turn itself off. Anyone purporting to know that is selling something less valuable than snake oil, and a damn sight more dangerous.

cloudboy -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 5:52:35 PM)
Right, but the OP's point of emotional warfare being more common than batteries and assaults is true, but I've never met anyone in BDSM who was more worried about their own physical safety over their own emotional well being. The truth is, physical abuse should be handled by the criminal justice system, whereas coping with emotional abuse is a matter of one's own support system. I just wish the Catholic Church (and maybe the US military too) would have outsourced their problems to criminal prosecutors.

SpiritedRadiance -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 6:21:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael The other I have with RACK vs SSC is they both are aimed at largely non existant problems. How many threads have we had here in the last year about first person injuries? VS. How many threads about emotional damage? All this hand wringing over injuries that rarely happen verses almost no national attention on the most destructive aspect of bdsm, the emotional "accidents" that tear apart people's self esteem and ability to trust. Just thought I needed to repost this since clearly some people post without understanding the actual topic... That of the risks we ACTUALLY face, the physical is overemphasized and the mental and emotional aspects are underemphasized. Personally, I don't happen to agree with the part that I highlighted above. I've got three thoughts on the matter. The first is how I perceive your stance on the physical to begin with. This isn't the first time around that you've brought up discussions on how rare you believe physical injuries to be when compared to how often folks participate in BDSM. In the past, you've made your position very clear that you believe unintentional physical harm in BDSM is relatively low and what comes across as your belief that the minor stuff isn't a big deal. Now, I'm actually with you on some of that. There are times that it does get exaggerated somewhat and no, I don't personally know anybody that's had to do an ER trip because somebody wrapped them with a flogger. The second is I don't believe your assessment is correct that there isn't a lot of material on these boards about the emotional/mental aspect of being involved in dynamics, particularly if you are going to get into the territory of what happens when a dynamic ends. Maybe I'm seeing stuff that you aren't seeing because you tend to go back and forth about participation here, as opposed to the other site, but I think we get our share. As for the third, I really hope you're not going for that 'better, deeper, somehow more significant' mental/emotional aspect of a kink relationship as opposed to your everyday, garden variety vanilla one. Too often, I think people want to pull this one because a) they've never had a fulfilling vanilla relationship to make the comparison or b) they want to insinuate the aftermath of a failed dynamic somehow hurts more than the end of a long term vanilla relationship because the kink makes it "special" in some way. I don't think it's a competition between kinky folks and non kinky folks of better or worse when it comes to things like broken trust, etc. Almost in the same way that BDSM types who enjoy scenes that play more on the emotional/mental want to believe themselves 'deeper' than those who enjoy the physical aspects because the first group wants to believe themselves better or more elite in some way. Ive had to go to the er because of a flogger wrapping it was a wickedly nasty flogger and it wasnt just a leather flogger but a flogger none the less with metal tips.. Ive had to go to the er because of a cane, because of a paddle, because of many reasons, in my first cough M/s cough relationship, I was at multiple ers a lot for damage he did to me, needing stitches and bones to be reset and mended because my cough Master cough was a fucking moron, Ive seen people burnt during fire play, Hell Ive been burnt during fire play...And I burnt someone as well.. The reason why we focus on the physical risks is pretty darn simple, in fact its SO simple it really is blindly obvious.. the shit we do, the shit we enjoy, the shit that can happen when not IF but WHEN it goes wrong is important to know about... I need to know that leaving fire on the skin for more then three seconds will leave a minor burn, the longer i leave on the fire the more severe the burn.. I need to know its going to hurt worse to put a needle in the first or second layer of skin then if aiming for the 4th or 5th layer..... I dont need to know that its difficult to have a relationship and its hard to maintain communication because im not a fucking moron. I know regardless of wither im kinky or not the relationship aspects will be the same...because its two people having a relationship,

littlewonder -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 6:35:45 PM)
I've been doing this kind of stuff since I was 17. I'm now 41. Never been to an ER for it. The only time I've ever been to an ER was for a gallbladder attack and I've led a life where I would go down steep hills on a bike with no breaks, sit on top of moving cars and get thrown off, and all kinds of other stupid stuff and stuff that was just goddamn fun....but never from bdsm. If I heard of someone constantly going to an ER for bdsm stuff I would start to wonder about their relationship skills.

Aswad -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 9:25:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: descrite When someone can point to an emotional-pain metric, I will take this into consideration. The quantity of opioid painkillers required to make it go away (temporarily) is actually a pretty good measure, if you're talking about actual emotional pain, as opposed to distress (which isn't nearly as readily blunted by opioids) or any of the myriad other things that may be more serious than emotional pain per se. Emotional pain can extend to at least 200 times the pain of a broken leg, as measured by that yardstick. Which is not to say you should use opioids to blunt emotional pain, just that there's a good metric available. Feel free to start taking it into consideration. IWYW, — Aswad.

sexyred1 -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 9:33:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder I've been doing this kind of stuff since I was 17. I'm now 41. Never been to an ER for it. The only time I've ever been to an ER was for a gallbladder attack and I've led a life where I would go down steep hills on a bike with no breaks, sit on top of moving cars and get thrown off, and all kinds of other stupid stuff and stuff that was just goddamn fun....but never from bdsm. If I heard of someone constantly going to an ER for bdsm stuff I would start to wonder about their relationship skills. So you have never heard of the word accident?

littlewonder -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 9:43:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder I've been doing this kind of stuff since I was 17. I'm now 41. Never been to an ER for it. The only time I've ever been to an ER was for a gallbladder attack and I've led a life where I would go down steep hills on a bike with no breaks, sit on top of moving cars and get thrown off, and all kinds of other stupid stuff and stuff that was just goddamn fun....but never from bdsm. If I heard of someone constantly going to an ER for bdsm stuff I would start to wonder about their relationship skills. So you have never heard of the word accident? Sure, a couple of them here and there....but if every guy you are with is causing you to go to the ER, it would send out red flags to me about their choice in men and relationships.

tazzygirl -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 10:04:59 PM)
It requires every man a female submissive goes out with who causes her injury to rate on your scale? Im a bit confused by that. Many people will pour out the emotional pain. Very few admit to the physical pain. I ended up in the ER for it once. I went one way, he went another... oops... rip. Had problems pooping for a few months. I told the doc the truth, he just chuckled with me. I didnt rush to a message board to tell people about the incident. Accidents happen. It doesnt constitute abuse or that my choices were "bad".

Charles6682 -> RE: The real risks (6/16/2013 11:01:52 PM)
Accidents can and do happen. That's just a fact. The keyword is YET. Even if I have 60 years of experience, I wouldn't underestimate the risks of what I do for a second. But risks happen everywhere. I've gone parasailing over the Gulf of Mexico. I like going swimming in the Gulf of Mexico. Anything could happen being in such a large body of water. But like Parasailing, they offer safety instructions. Its in "who's" best interest to follow those safety guidelines once hauled up in the air? The person flying above the water.

SwitchNSpanky -> RE: The real risks (6/17/2013 12:29:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BambiBoi I held her heart in my hands. Inexplicably, I tore it to shreds. I understand where you are coming from, Michael. If I had cracked her rib or struck her kidneys people would be up in arms about my lack of fitness to lead. Instead, I created something beautiful and shattered it selfishly. I'm so sorry... I knew so little... I did so much harm... This is so heartfelt. Thank you for sharing this.

Kana -> RE: The real risks (6/17/2013 1:09:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BambiBoi I held her heart in my hands. Inexplicably, I tore it to shreds. For whatever reason, I read this and the very next thought was that line from Fight club, "I wanted to destroy something beautiful." For what it's worth, I agree with Michael's base contention. We spend endless amounts of time discussing physical safety, cuz you, know, people can suffer lifelong trauma, yet BDSM focuses far less on mental safety, cuz, you know, nobody ever suffered lifelong damage from a bad relationship. Course, part of the problem is that one is a physical fix-teach em the ground rules, what's dangerous, hell, it's almost like working on an assembly line. Whereas teaching someone how to safely tread the minefields that can form a bound interaction generally involves attempting to make them a better person, which is a much more difficult task

SpiritedRadiance -> RE: The real risks (6/17/2013 4:10:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder I've been doing this kind of stuff since I was 17. I'm now 41. Never been to an ER for it. The only time I've ever been to an ER was for a gallbladder attack and I've led a life where I would go down steep hills on a bike with no breaks, sit on top of moving cars and get thrown off, and all kinds of other stupid stuff and stuff that was just goddamn fun....but never from bdsm. If I heard of someone constantly going to an ER for bdsm stuff I would start to wonder about their relationship skills. So you have never heard of the word accident? Sure, a couple of them here and there....but if every guy you are with is causing you to go to the ER, it would send out red flags to me about their choice in men and relationships. ONE man and he beat the ever loving shit out of me in ways that would make you cry and make Kana look like a fluffy kitten..., It was a poor choice i was 15 and realize i wasnt making the best choices... when someone takes a metal walking cane and then proceeds to hit you with it like its a baseball bat, injuries then tend to ensue. I have not been injured in the degree that i need to go to the er since my relationship with him. However, if i would have known better his lines of your topping from the bottom and or your not a true sub wouldnt have worked....And maybe if he wasnt an abusive jackass and knew not to go for the kidneys ribs and neck... i wouldnt have had to have so many trips to the er...

descrite -> RE: The real risks (6/17/2013 4:22:33 PM)
quote: The quantity of opioid painkillers required to make it go away (temporarily) is actually a pretty good measure, if you're talking about actual emotional pain Do people respond to opiates in a normalized, regular manner? We know the LD for substances, and that is an objective measure across our species...but do we know the "Emotional Dose" for a variety of woes? I'm asking, because I don't really know, not to be sarcastic. But I'm guessing we don't know. Because emotional harm is individualized...which is why there's no metric. Some people live in lifelong fear because Uncle Creepy touched their wee-wee once....Andy Grove left Auschwitz and founded Intel.

SimplyMichael -> RE: The real risks (6/17/2013 5:12:53 PM)
I won't violate the TOS by telling you what I think of your post but here is a sample. You use the acronym LD which stands for lethal dose. The other common,bit of that is LD 50 which means that dose, on average, will kill 50% of the sample. Its not a black and white line, its imprecise. As for sociopaths using bdsm to repeatedly send someone to the ER, kinda proves my point. Sociopaths are unlikely to benefit from safety classes, however helping people gain the self respect to kick assholes like that to the curb faster would improve things.

Aswad -> RE: The real risks (6/18/2013 6:48:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: descrite Do people respond to opiates in a normalized, regular manner? [...] do we know the "Emotional Dose" for a variety of woes? [...] I'm asking, because I don't really know, not to be sarcastic. The response is fairly uniform, and there's a fairly strong correlation between emotional pain and physical pain, enough so that we could probably compare them. That said, emotional pain isn't necessarily the same as emotional harm, and may not even be correlated. Harm is usually a long term thing. Though a single event can cause harm, it's usually the case that there has been a long term influence, often in the form of secondary trauma (e.g. Uncle Creepy touches your wee-wee, and a family feud ensues, along with a bunch of reactions from the community, hassle with people behaving all strange about it, etc., stuff that goes on for years after the fact, causing orders of magnitude more harm than the initial event; this tends to be the case for rape trauma, that there's some primary trauma from the event and a fuckton of secondary trauma from how people around you react to the event and to you). As human beings, we have a substantial capacity for pain, emotional or physical, and tend to recover from it, so long as it's "just" pain. Your question, though, was about emotional pain, not emotional harm. Hope this helps. IWYW, — Aswad.

hrxxx -> RE: The real risks (6/18/2013 11:09:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael The other I have with RACK vs SSC is they both are aimed at largely non existant problems. How many threads have we had here in the last year about first person injuries? VS. How many threads about emotional damage? All this hand wringing over injuries that rarely happen verses almost no national attention on the most destructive aspect of bdsm, the emotional "accidents" that tear apart people's self esteem and ability to trust. You know what, you can also use BDSM as therapy, I have more than once helped the girls to forget and sexual abuse in their childhood. If a girl has been sexual abused as a child, she will typically have many thoughts and feelings about it, and there are thoughts and emotions she can not control, she wants to get rid of the thoughts and emotions but she can not, some go to psychologist for years and talk about it and learn to live with it, but they'll never get rid of it. What happens if you use BDSM as therapy whether they are experienced or inexperienced with BDSM in basic the same Previously, I spent much my mobile to chat or mobile dating, because I always have my phone nearby, and it is easy and quick to send a txt. What happens after this first contact, in that I start to spin my sadistic web I'm always honest when I spin my sadistic web of who I am and what I am into, so she can see me several miles away My web is filled is stuffed with imagination hopes dreams fantasies, some are from real life experience and some are not, some are fit to be lived in real life and some are not. And what happens to the girl she is becoming more and more curious and she wants more and more of my web, and as long I spin on my web around her, she have no thoughts or emotions about sexual abuse, because I have complete control over what she think and feel. In practical work my sadistic web with I send a txt in the morning with my sadism, so I'm sure the thoughts she has and during the day I send more txt, and she sends back, it usually happens 5-7 times a day. In the evening me and her have better time to play ping pong with txt, and for some reason girls like to do this part alone in bed LOL and after a few months of spining every day. she is caught in the web and can not and will not get out, and she is ready to come and it does not matter where in the world she comes from she is ready! And when she comes and i pick her up from airport, boat, or train, she is shy and nervous some talk a lot but do not make much sens and some is very quiet and nervous, but one thing ther is common for them all, is when they strip naked and get iron or leather cuff and collar on is ther only one thought in their head, and that thought makes their pussy so wet that it drips on the floor After a play weekend and they have come home their thoughts on BDSM play, and on what they have experienced and learned, and they will get small flash from the play for a long time after, and these flash replaces the flash they had before the sexual abuse, the difference between the flash are good and bad memories and if they continue to seek good BDSM experiences they will crowd out the bad flash and it happens because BDSM is so strong an experience as it is. And the same happen to girls who have not experience sexual abouse same same thing It is based on my my real life BDSM experience and not a fucking book and I mentioned that I have never used a safe word in these weekend-long BDSM sessions. I do not say this work for every boddy but for some.

Charles6682 -> RE: The real risks (6/19/2013 12:48:45 AM)
Something I didn't really consider are the emotional and mental implications after play, not just the physical wounds eventually heal. The mental/emotional aspect to this can last a lot longer. Even now, I look back at some of the thing's I use to do and I can't believe I did that. I hear the term "EdgePlay" used a lot. When I say the term "extreme", that is probably the best term I am looking for. If anyone is familiar with real beatdowns, then I would assume that could probably be considered "EdgePlay" or at least one of the more "extreme" fetished out there. Even though I am not the biggest pain fanatic, I have proven I can tolerate my fairshare of pain. Maybe that's where some of the Women I have played with would get confused. A whipping for me would certainly be considered a "punishment". I can tolerate the pain but I do not like it one bit. Probaly depends on who is using the whip too.

descrite -> RE: The real risks (6/21/2013 7:12:40 PM)
quote: The other common,bit of that is LD 50 which means that dose, on average, will kill 50% of the sample. Its not a black and white line, its imprecise. No, it's not: it kills 50% of human beings in a sample. Half will die. That's a pretty discrete value. You can flip the coin for yourself, if you want to mainline arsenic, but if you're part of the species, you know it's a coin flip. We could play Outliers all day long, but objective is objective. Which is why I have to ask about the emotional pain (or harm-- good point, Aswad) threshold: do we have one? Can we assign a metric? I think not. We can find out how many people need XX mgs of an opiate after we hit their hand with the same ball peen hammer, at a distinct psi (and whether that falls onto a bell curve). We cannot do the same for emotional pain because-- well, we can't really establish an objective test for feelings, ever, can we? Thus-- no reason to train for feelings. (Operative term there: "reason.")

littlewonder -> RE: The real risks (6/21/2013 8:10:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hrxxx You know what, you can also use BDSM as therapy, I have more than once helped the girls to forget and sexual abuse in their childhood. If a girl has been sexual abused as a child, she will typically have many thoughts and feelings about it, and there are thoughts and emotions she can not control, she wants to get rid of the thoughts and emotions but she can not, some go to psychologist for years and talk about it and learn to live with it, but they'll never get rid of it. What happens if you use BDSM as therapy whether they are experienced or inexperienced with BDSM in basic the same I personally would find you dangerous. Bdsm is not therapy unless you can show me your degree.

stef -> RE: The real risks (6/21/2013 8:42:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder I personally would find you dangerous. Bdsm is not therapy unless you can show me your degree. Even with a degree, I would have a hard time calling that therapy. Sounds like shades of Bob here 0.o

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