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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 10:05:19 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Hush lucy, you're acting like a "science worshiper".

yup
bullshit is easier to swallow(obviously), but gawd it fucks with your head

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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 10:28:06 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And most babies delivered to a woman with preterm pre-eclampsia do not survive.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12521452


Most babies delivered to women with pre-eclampsia do survive! Most babies born to mothers with 'severe' pre-eclampsia that are < or = 27 weeks will not survive.

it also says, In this study, carried out in a developing country, elective caesarean section contributed to a better perinatal outcome than vaginal delivery or emergency caesarean section following induction of labour.

Abortion is a vaginal delivery.


< Message edited by MariaB -- 6/19/2013 10:31:08 AM >


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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 10:34:38 AM   
tazzygirl


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Before I believe a physician who himself says its his "belief" that a fetus feels pain based upon the response of pre-term infants response to surgery, SOME need to read the following.

Lets look at a more scientific explanation....

The neurobiology of the fetus: anatomical pathways
Notwithstanding limitations, it is useful to view the pain system as an alarm system. Viewed in this way, a noxious stimulus is an event that activates free nerve endings in the skin, similar to pushing an alarm button. The electric cable from the button to the alarm is similar to the connection between the nerve endings and the brain. The brain is the alarm that rings out pain. Whether the fetus can respond to a noxious stimulus with pain can thus be decided in part by determining when the alarm system is completely developed.

Free nerve endings, the “alarm buttons,” begin to develop at about seven weeks' gestation; projections from the spinal cord, the major “cable” to the brain, can reach the thalamus (the lower alarm) at seven weeks' gestation. An intact spinothalamic projection might be viewed as the minimal necessary anatomical architecture to support pain processing, putting the lower limit for the experience of pain at seven weeks' gestation.

At this time, however, the nervous system has yet to fully mature. No laminar structure is evident in the thalamus or cortex, a defining feature of maturity. The external wall of the brain is about 1 mm thick and consists of an inner and outer layer with no cortical plate. The neuronal cell density of the outer layer is much higher than that of a newborn infant or adult and at seven weeks' gestation has yet to receive any thalamic projections. Without thalamic projections, these neuronal cells cannot process noxious information from the periphery.​periphery.

The first projections from the thalamus to cortex (the higher alarm) appear at 12-16 weeks' gestation. By this stage the brain's outer layer has split into an outer cortical rim, with a subplate developing below. The thalamic projections that develop from 12-16 weeks penetrate the subplate. Within the subplate, cortical afferents establish prolonged synaptic contacts before entering the cortical plate. The subplate is a “waiting compartment,” required for mature connections in the cortex. The major afferent fibres (thalamocortical, basal forebrain, and corticocortical) can wait in the subplate for several weeks, before they penetrate and form synapses within the cortical plate from 23-25 weeks' gestation. Subsequent dissolution of the subplate occurs through prolonged growth and maturation of associative connections in the human cerebral cortex.

Spinothalamic projections into the subplate may provide the minimal necessary anatomy for pain experience,The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.Destroy user interface control8 but this view does not account for the transient nature of the subplate and its apparent role in the maturation of functional cortical connections. A lack of functional neuronal activity within the subplate calls into question the pain experience of a fetus before the penetration of spinothalamic fibres into the cortical plate.

Current theories of pain consider an intact cortical system to be both necessary and sufficient for pain experience. In support are functional imaging studies showing that activation within a network of cortical regions correlate with reported pain experience. Furthermore, cortical activation can generate the experience of pain even in the absence of actual noxious stimulation. These observations suggest thalamic projections into the cortical plate are the minimal necessary anatomy for pain experience. These projections are complete at 23 weeks' gestation. The period 23-25 weeks' gestation is also the time at which the peripheral free nerve endings and their projection sites within the spinal cord reach full maturity. By 26 weeks' gestation the characteristic layers of the thalamus and cortex are visible, with obvious similarities to the adult brain, and it has recently been shown that noxious stimulation can evoke haemodynamic changes in the somatosensory cortex of premature babies from a gestational age of 25 weeks. Although the system is clearly immature and much development is still to occur (fig 1), good evidence exists that the biological system necessary for pain is intact and functional from around 26 weeks' gestation.


............

Without consciousness there can be nociception but there cannot be pain. Thus to understand how pain experience becomes possible it is necessary to understand the origin and developmental course of conscious experience. It is reasonable to assume that conscious function can only emerge if the necessary neural circuitry to carry out that function is fully developed and functional.The following popper user interface control may not be accessible.

It is also necessary to assume that conscious function can only emerge if the proper psychological content and environment has been provided. Before infants can think about objects or events, or experience sensations and emotion, the contents of thought must have an independent existence in their mind. This is something that is achieved through continued brain development in conjunction with discoveries made in action and in patterns of mutual adjustment and interactions with a caregiver. The development of representational memory, which allows infants to respond and to learn from stored information rather than respond to material directly available, may be considered a building block of conscious development. Representational memory begins to emerge as the frontal cortex develops between two and four months of age, supported by developments in the hippocampus that facilitate the formation, storage, and retrieval of memories.w5 From this point tagging in memory is possible, or labelling as “something,” all the objects, emotions, and sensations that appear or are felt. When a primary caregiver points to a spot on the body and asks “does that hurt?” he or she is providing content and enabling an internal discrimination and with it experience. This type of interaction provides content and symbols that allow infants to locate and anchor emotions and sensations. It is in this way that infants can arrive at a particular state of being within their own mind. Although pain experience is individual, it is created by a process that extends beyond the individual.

This is likely to strike anyone as strange because it is simply not how we intuitively believe pain to be. Because pain is so automatic and personal we perceive it to be natural and private. But because we are able to experience pain as such a personal event does not mean that we individually acquired the ability to experience pain in the first place. Nor does it mean that the psychological mechanisms by which we experience pain arose within our own brains by some individualistic process such as neuronal maturation

This is not to deny that neonates and fetuses have the neural apparatus to discriminate information; clearly, fetuses and neonates do not respond to tactile stimuli in the same way as they do to auditory stimuli, for example. Indeed, this discriminatory processing is the raw material for a primary caregiver's assessments of his or her infant's need and for the interactions and behavioural adjustments that occur in the forthcoming months. Innate neural and behavioural discrimination are part of the material for developing experiential discrimination, but experiential discrimination is yet to develop and relies critically on interactions with a primary caregiver. For fetuses and newborn infants, these interactions have yet to occur.

By this line of reasoning fetuses cannot be held to experience pain. Not only has the biological development not yet occurred to support pain experience, but the environment after birth, so necessary to the development of pain experience, is also yet to occur.

..........

The medical goals of survival and long term normal development of fetuses should not influence medical decisions when a woman seeks an abortion. Under these circumstances, the question of analgesia or anaesthesia in fetuses can be more directly tackled by examining the possibility of pain in fetuses and the consequences of any pain relief for fetuses on the health and wellbeing of the pregnant woman. The case against fetal pain, as documented here, indicates that a mandate to provide pain relief before abortion is not supported by what is known about the neurodevelopment of systems that support pain. Proposals to directly inject fetuses with fentanyl or to provide pain relief through increased administration of fentanyl or diazepams to pregnant women, which increase risks to the women and costs to the health provider, undermine the interests of the women and are unnecessary for fetuses, who have not yet reached a developmental stage that would support the conscious experience of pain.

Summary points

The neuroanatomical system for pain can be considered complete by 26 weeks' gestation

A developed neuroanatomical system is necessary but not sufficient for pain experience

Pain experience requires development of the brain but also requires development of the mind to accommodate the subjectivity of pain

Development of the mind occurs outside the womb through the actions of the infant and mutual adjustment with primary caregivers

The absence of pain in the fetus does not resolve the morality of abortion but does argue against legal and clinical efforts to prevent such pain during an abortion

Conclusion

The neural circuitry for pain in fetuses is immature. More importantly, the developmental processes necessary for the mindful experience of pain are not yet developed. An absence of pain in the fetus does not resolve the question of whether abortion is morally acceptable or should be legal. Nevertheless, proposals to inform women seeking abortions of the potential for pain in fetuses are not supported by evidence. Legal or clinical mandates for interventions to prevent such pain are scientifically unsound and may expose women to inappropriate interventions, risks, and distress. Avoiding a discussion of fetal pain with women requesting abortions is not misguided paternalism but a sound policy based on good evidence that fetuses cannot experience pain.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1440624/

BMJ. 2006 April 15; 332(7546):

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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 10:41:02 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Most babies delivered to women with pre-eclampsia do survive! Most babies born to mothers with 'severe' pre-eclampsia that are < or = 27 weeks will not survive.


And the chances of a pre-term surviving a delivery, regardless of how its performed, at 22 weeks? Which is why I said "MOST".

quote:



ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And most babies delivered to a woman with preterm pre-eclampsia do not survive.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12521452


Sometimes my knowledge of these things gets in the way of my expressing them. A c-section for pre-eclampsia would only be offered it its severe (unmanageable). There would be no reason to perform a c-section before 27 weeks if the condition is medically manageable.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 6/19/2013 10:43:28 AM >


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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 10:55:09 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Vulgarity at its finest.

quote:

you went to them whining to interfere with the rights to own and bear arms (guns) and whining for them to give you free health care for your pussy, (making them a 3rd party interest), so your pussy and what goes on in there is fair game to interfere with as well! LMAO


What "free health care" for our "pussy"

Do either Lucy or myself seem worried that this mess will pass the Senate? lol But we are part of an insidious movement.... spreading the word about the stupidity of such measures, and the money wasted on these bills and in court fees.

But, hey, if you dont mind your state always being broke, and some jerk off group of politicians putting the state's cock into your ass, reaming you out and not even spitting first to give you a little bit of lube ....

You go with your bad self!



Aw you dont like my euphemisms?
Since when is the word pussy vulgar? (in the sense you put it)
Pretty tame shit imo.

It describes all the components of the whole system you are talking about in one word.

Bad me! spanky spank! Feel better?

Either way you wanted freedom and continue to want the government to have 3rd party interest in what goes on in your ""pussy" et al" (since you have not given an alternative description) so I am all for this bill and since it is a democracy that transfers that interest to me, I will write my senator and express my wishes as a citizen that this bill be passed to save lives. Just like your gun ban wishes. Furthermore I think their should be a use tax as well and a special tax when abortions are desired and statutes regulating its use.

Either way this is all part of the democratic process that you champion, and the state doesnt stick a cock up any ones ass btw they stick guns up their asses.






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 6/19/2013 11:01:09 AM >


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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 11:06:53 AM   
VideoAdminChi


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FR,

As this is a hot topic, we will be keeping an eye on it, so consider yourselves warned.



As a reminder, from the Forum Guidelines: Considering the natural diversity of opinion and expression, it is expected that disagreements will often occur. While debate is fine, postings of the sort generally known as "flames" is not. Participants are not expected to coddle one another, but they are expected to keep things within the realm of maturity.

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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 11:14:00 AM   
VideoAdminChi


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FYI - locked for cleanup.

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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 12:17:36 PM   
VideoAdminChi


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Unlocked.


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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 12:19:10 PM   
Hillwilliam


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*steals the key and runs off laughing like a madman*

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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 12:19:18 PM   
Lucylastic


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http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429

Fetal Pain
A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence
Context Proposed federal legislation would require physicians to inform women seeking abortions at 20 or more weeks after fertilization that the fetus feels pain and to offer anesthesia administered directly to the fetus. This article examines whether a fetus feels pain and if so, whether safe and effective techniques exist for providing direct fetal anesthesia or analgesia in the context of therapeutic procedures or abortion.

Evidence Acquisition Systematic search of PubMed for English-language articles focusing on human studies related to fetal pain, anesthesia, and analgesia. Included articles studied fetuses of less than 30 weeks’ gestational age or specifically addressed fetal pain perception or nociception. Articles were reviewed for additional references. The search was performed without date limitations and was current as of June 6, 2005.

Evidence Synthesis Pain perception requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus. Neither withdrawal reflexes nor hormonal stress responses to invasive procedures prove the existence of fetal pain, because they can be elicited by nonpainful stimuli and occur without conscious cortical processing. Fetal awareness of noxious stimuli requires functional thalamocortical connections. Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks. For fetal surgery, women may receive general anesthesia and/or analgesics intended for placental transfer, and parenteral opioids may be administered to the fetus under direct or sonographic visualization. In these circumstances, administration of anesthesia and analgesia serves purposes unrelated to reduction of fetal pain, including inhibition of fetal movement, prevention of fetal hormonal stress responses, and induction of uterine atony.

Conclusions Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques. Similarly, limited or no data exist on the safety of such techniques for pregnant women in the context of abortion. Anesthetic techniques currently used during fetal surgery are not directly applicable to abortion procedures.

Over the last several years, many states, including California, Kentucky, Minnesota, Montana, New York, Oregon, and Virginia, have considered legislation requiring physicians to inform women seeking abortions that the fetus feels pain and to offer fetal anesthesia. This year, Arkansas and Georgia enacted such statutes.1- 2 Currently, Congress is considering legislation requiring physicians to inform women seeking abortions 20 or more weeks after fertilization (ie, 22 weeks’ gestational age) that the fetus has “physical structures necessary to experience pain,” as evidenced by “draw[ing] away from surgical instruments.” The physician must also offer anesthesia or analgesia “administered directly” to the fetus. Physicians who do not comply may be subject to substantial fines, license revocation, and civil suits for punitive damages.3

Although this legislation would not affect most US abortions because only 1.4% are performed at or after 21 weeks’ gestational age,4 this legislation raises important scientific, clinical, ethical, and policy issues. When does a fetus have the functional capacity to feel pain? If that capacity exists, what forms of anesthesia or analgesia are safe and effective for treating fetal pain? As a first step in answering these questions, we reviewed the literature on fetal pain and fetal anesthesia and analgesia.

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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 12:21:39 PM   
tazzygirl


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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 12:24:43 PM   
Lucylastic


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LOL


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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 12:51:56 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Most babies delivered to women with pre-eclampsia do survive! Most babies born to mothers with 'severe' pre-eclampsia that are < or = 27 weeks will not survive.


And the chances of a pre-term surviving a delivery, regardless of how its performed, at 22 weeks? Which is why I said "MOST".



You are missing my point. A vaginal abortion which takes too long, would in most cases be highly dangerous to pre-eclamtic women.

A 22 year old female of 22 weeks gestation and suffering severe pre-eclamsia would be strongly advised to have a c-section. She would be told that its unlikely the baby would survive but they would have a paediatrician and an incubator standing by. They would use the word 'baby' and not foetus.

Why would they deliberately try and kill a much wanted baby because the mother can't continue her pregnancy in its second trimester.?


< Message edited by MariaB -- 6/19/2013 12:52:29 PM >


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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 1:07:59 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Most babies delivered to women with pre-eclampsia do survive! Most babies born to mothers with 'severe' pre-eclampsia that are < or = 27 weeks will not survive.


And the chances of a pre-term surviving a delivery, regardless of how its performed, at 22 weeks? Which is why I said "MOST".



You are missing my point. A vaginal abortion which takes too long, would in most cases be highly dangerous to pre-eclamtic women.

A 22 year old female of 22 weeks gestation and suffering severe pre-eclamsia would be strongly advised to have a c-section. She would be told that its unlikely the baby would survive but they would have a paediatrician and an incubator standing by. They would use the word 'baby' and not foetus.

Why would they deliberately try and kill a much wanted baby because the mother can't continue her pregnancy in its second trimester.?


I strongly doubt most people, presented with the reality of a 22 week baby's odds of survival and frequency of severe complications, would opt to attempt to deliver a live baby at 22 weeks.

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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 1:08:38 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

You are missing my point. A vaginal abortion which takes too long, would in most cases be highly dangerous to pre-eclamtic women.


And my knowledge of such things tends to make me overlook other things.

A woman who is pre-eclamptic, and its her first pregnancy, can take days.... or just 1. If its not her first pregnancy, induction could be started that morning and she could deliver that evening.

Results
Fifty-seven and four-tenths percent of 491 women underwent induction of labor. Vaginal delivery occurred in 6.7%, 47.5%, and 68.8% of women who underwent labor induction between 24 and 28, 28 and 32, and 32 and 34 weeks of gestation, respectively. Induction of labor was not associated with an increase in neonatal morbidity or mortality rate after we controlled for gestational age and other confounders.

Conclusion
Neonatal outcomes are not worsened by induction of labor in women with early-onset severe preeclampsia, although it is rarely successful at <28 weeks of gestation.


http://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-9378(08)00708-4/abstract

quote:

Why would they deliberately try and kill a much wanted baby because the mother can't continue her pregnancy in its second trimester.?


Why are you assuming a vaginal delivery means an increase in the morbidity or mortality rate?

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 6/19/2013 1:09:48 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 1:10:23 PM   
MariaB


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The risk of death from abortion increases as pregnancy progresses.

Abortion complications can result in maternal death. Since abortion was legalized in the United States in 1973, more than 400 women are known to have died from legal abortions.[4] The risk of death is higher in later stages of pregnancy. A study of national data on abortion-related mortality from 1988 to 1997 found that at 13-15 weeks of gestation, the rate of abortion-related mortality was 14.7 per 100,000; at 16-20 weeks, the rate rose to 29.5 per 100,000; and at or after 21 weeks, the rate reached 76.6 deaths per 100,000.[5]


Medical knowledge acquired over the last four decades demonstrates that abortion is riskier than childbirth for women and justifies a prohibition at 20 weeks based on concerns for maternal safety.

Existing medical data confirms that abortion is increasingly less safe than childbirth as pregnancy advances. (See Section I.) The long-term risks of abortion justify a prohibition to ensure maternal safety, in which the states have a compelling interest “once an abortion may be more dangerous than childbirth.” (City of Akron v. Akron Center for Reproductive Health, 462 U.S. at 460 (1983) (O‘Connor, J., dissenting).

http://www.aul.org/womens-health-defense-actlate-term-abortion-ban/

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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 1:13:38 PM   
calamitysandra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Why would they deliberately try and kill a much wanted baby because the mother can't continue her pregnancy in its second trimester.?


Why are you assuming a vaginal delivery means an increase in the morbidity or mortality rate?



I think she is comparing it not to a vaginal delivery, but to an abortion via vaginal delivery.

She is contrasting trying to save mother and child, even if the chances are bad for the baby, and opting for an abortion because the health of the mother is in jopardy.

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RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 1:15:53 PM   
tazzygirl


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And, in your mind, you cant fathom a single reason why a OBGYN might want to wait a day or two before doing a section?

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 1:17:41 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


Why are you assuming a vaginal delivery means an increase in the morbidity or mortality rate?


Because its a vaginal abortion and not a vaginal natural birth....Physical trauma to the foetus.


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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR - 6/19/2013 1:18:21 PM   
tazzygirl


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Ok.. are we speaking pre-eclampsia here or abortions? Two different issues.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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