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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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Abortionists who work in private clinics will abort late term. It really isn't that uncommon tazzy. Its not about how many women choose and get late term abortions, its about the ethics behind it.

I could of talked about 'placenta break' or 'gestational diabetes' but I spoke about pre-eclampsia because its a more likely culprit of a 2nd trimester birth.

Late second to third trimester.

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My objection is the suggestion of an induced birth with a high risk of dilation and extraction of a healthy and viable foetus, when there is an alternative, the 'C-section'.

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Whilst many believe a late term abortion on a healthy foetus should be the mothers choice, we must remember, its only whilst doctors are willing to do such abortions that we have a choice at all. If all doctors were to say, 'ethically I can't kill this healthy baby that could survive outside the womb' that choice would simply be taken away from us.

Whoa... who believes a late term abortion should be on demand?

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The first trimester of pregnancy is week 1 through week 12, or about 3 months.
The second trimester is week 13 to week 27.
And the third trimester of pregnancy spans from week 28 to the birth.

Which is why I keep saying late second into third. Obviously a 13 week old gestational fetus is not going to survive, even with the claims of a c-section being available.

Born at 22 weeks: About 10% of babies survive
23 weeks: 50% to 66% of babies survive
24 weeks: 66% to 80% of babies survive
25 weeks: 75% to 85% of babies survive
26 weeks: Over 90% of babies survive

Eighty-eight percent of abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, 2006.
Only 11% of all abortion providers offer abortions at 24 weeks.
Only 1.5% abortions after 21 weeks
Nine in 10 abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy

So she is arguing about 1.5% of the abortions in the US.

Depending on the source, the number of abortions per year in the US run from 800,000 to 1.2 million.

The good news for pro-life advocates is that abortions are on the decline. Abortions fell five percent nationwide in 2009, according to the most recent information from the CDC, the biggest drop in 10 years.

http://www.lifenews.com/2013/01/18/55772015-abortions-in-america-since-roe-vs-wade-in-1973/

The pro-lifers will have everyone believe that because of their efforts, less abortions have occurred. Interesting how they do not discuss the availability of medications such as Plan B into the accounting which became readily available starting in 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_contraception#Plan_B

Amazing how those numbers actually fell since 2006, not 2009 as the lifenews would have you believe.

http://www.nrlc.org/Factsheets/FS03_AbortionInTheUS.pdf

I have no problem with someone taking a moral stance against abortion. If, morally, you dont approve of abortion, dont have one. I do take exception to someone twisting medical facts to attempt to prove their moral stance is correct.

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ORIGINAL: MariaB

many babies born in the second trimester survive, some dont and yes, there are often complications but technology is striding on and many late second trimester babies are growing up without ongoing problems. micro preemies are another story but if you re-read what I wrote you will see that I was saying just that. You are saying that any baby born within the second trimester will either die or suffer from a multitude of physical and mental problems I strongly disagree.

Are you saying that all mothers who come into labour under 28 weeks would opt for an abortion if they knew the facts? Do you really think mothers that give birth to babies under 28 weeks don't know the facts?

As far as corticosteroids, they can do huge good, especially for sticky lungs. Not all babies will respond but a lot will.

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In 30 years 400 women have died from abortion, or a bit over 10/year. Given the number of abortions performed each year, which the religious right says is 1 million, then that means 10 deaths out of 1 million performed..and of course, we also don't know if the abortions caused the death, or for example, of those 10 who die from abortions, how many of them would die if they had given live birth.....a lot more then 10 women a year die giving birth to children, so if you want to use that as justification not to have abortion, then you should ban live childbirth, too, because I would bet the number of women dying in live chidbirth as a percentage is much higher than 1 in 100,000.

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ORIGINAL: MariaB

Both sides are twisted. The pro-lifers twist and exaggerate and the pro abortionists twist and play down things. Only scientific papers can show an unbiased view.

why do you call me 'she' and 'her'. My name is Maria and it was me, Marie who contributed to this thread. By referring to me as 'she' you are being condescending. Now weather that's deliberate or not, I don't know but I can't continue to debate and discuss like this.

Just to re-iterate, I am against late term abortion on a healthy viable foetus on unintended pregnancies. (Private clinics across the western world still perform late abortions for that reason)

I am against late second trimester abortion on a healthy viable foetus via dilation and extraction methods, when the mother could have a c-section.

I am not anti abortion perse.

On a side note' I have worked in both Obstetrics and Neonatology and whilst I don't claim to be an expert, I do have medical experience in this field.

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ORIGINAL: njlauren

You have to remember that most pro lifers consider plan B and morning after pills as abortion as well, because they claim the fertilized egg is a full human being all covered in God stuff.....which is fine, if they don't want to do that, but they want to keep others from using this as well.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

rofl... so now people HAVE to believe in god to have a conscience.

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however people of God and conscience do

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne


the state machine does not recognize anything as a person till its ass physically hits the table, however people of God and conscience do.

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ORIGINAL: crazyml

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne


the state machine does not recognize anything as a person till its ass physically hits the table, however people of God and conscience do.

I don't.

Now I'm cool with you asserting that I'm godless, on account of my being an atheist.

But to suggest that I don't have a conscience would be offensive were it not such a silly thing to say.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: crazyml

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne


the state machine does not recognize anything as a person till its ass physically hits the table, however people of God and conscience do.

I don't.

Now I'm cool with you asserting that I'm godless, on account of my being an atheist.

But to suggest that I don't have a conscience would be offensive were it not such a silly thing to say.

well you are free to choose any religion you desire, atheism included.

However the secular humanist/atheist state is and always has been a nothing more than a machine without conscience.

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ORIGINAL: crazyml

I don't think that that is true at all. It's certainly not true to argue that a Theocracy has a greater conscience.

Besides on reflection, I can't actually assume from your statement that godless people don't have a conscience - You've just selected the subset of believers that also have a conscience.

In any case - I think you're simply wrong to argue that the personhood of a 1 hour old fetus is a matter of conscience. Two people with the same amount of conscience can disagree on questions of ethics, you know...

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the "living" body however resides in the moral status and exists the moment fertilization occurs and will develop into a wo/man provided conditions not interrupted.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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the "living" body however resides in the moral status and exists the moment fertilization occurs and will develop into a wo/man provided conditions not interrupted.

So shall we put God on trial for interrupting those conditions?

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Go look it up ... if fertilization is the point of a beginning of life... then "God" is responsible for half of the pregnancies ending every year.. and we are not even talking about those before implantation.