RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR

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MariaB -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/20/2013 10:47:20 AM)
many babies born in the second trimester survive, some dont and yes, there are often complications but technology is striding on and many late second trimester babies are growing up without ongoing problems. micro preemies are another story but if you re-read what I wrote you will see that I was saying just that. You are saying that any baby born within the second trimester will either die or suffer from a multitude of physical and mental problems I strongly disagree. Are you saying that all mothers who come into labour under 28 weeks would opt for an abortion if they knew the facts? Do you really think mothers that give birth to babies under 28 weeks don't know the facts? As far as corticosteroids, they can do huge good, especially for sticky lungs. Not all babies will respond but a lot will.

tazzygirl -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/20/2013 1:29:47 PM)
quote: Every contribution I have made so far has been about 2nd trimester mothers (13 to 28 weeks) because we were and have, I thought, been talking about 2nd trimester abortions. No, we have been discussing late term abortions, which are those from the later stages of the 2nd into the 3rd trimester. 13 weeks is NOT viable. 20 weeks is NOT viable. Most 22 weeks are NOT viable. If we reallyw ant to get technical, surfactant isnt produced until 24-28 weeks. You cant breathe without it. Just isnt going to happen. We can FORCE a fetus to produce it by giving them corticosteroids.. sometimes. It doesnt always work or work fast enough as evidenced by the 21.6 week old baby who was born with major respiratory complications. France set the viability for resuscitation at 25 weeks. For most of the states its 20 weeks, some push to 24. So why you are assuming we are talking about a 13 week old fetus I have no clue. quote: This is why second trimester inductions take 3 to 4 days and often result in C-section or more tragically in some cases, a D&E. For an abortion, yes. Not for delivery because.. guess what.. we dont deliver 13 week gestational fetuses. quote: Are you saying that all mothers who come into labour under 28 weeks would opt for an abortion if they knew the facts? Do you really think mothers that give birth to babies under 28 weeks don't know the facts? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo because... read carefully... they are at that age of viability. So an OBGYN will do everything he medically can to save that fetus. Very few states allow a 28 week abortion without medical reason, that reason being for the health of the mother or fetal anomalies. quote: As far as corticosteroids, they can do huge good, especially for sticky lungs. Not all babies will respond but a lot will. Benefits were found when treatment was commenced between 26 and 35 weeks of gestation, and for babies born 1–7 days after commencing treatment, and also for subsets of women with premature rupture of the membranes and with hypertensive disorders. Combined fetal and neonatal deaths were reduced even in infants born less than 24 hours after administration of the first dose. No benefits were demonstrated for treatment commenced, or infants born, before 26 weeks of gestation, nor for those born more than seven days after treatment. For babies born after 36 weeks there was a trend to increase combined fetal and neonatal death. http://apps.who.int/rhl/pregnancy_childbirth/complications/preterm_birth/cd004454_hofmeyrgj_com/en/ So why you are going on and on and on about those before 26 weeks, I have no clue. Even the research on corticosteriods given during labor before that have shown they dont work well. Now, can be get back to an honest discussion about the late 2nd trimester abortions? You know, those after 24 weeks? Because, while there are miracle babies, they are far, far from the norm and they have massive medical problems.

DomKen -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/20/2013 2:36:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB many babies born in the second trimester survive, some dont and yes, there are often complications but technology is striding on and many late second trimester babies are growing up without ongoing problems. micro preemies are another story but if you re-read what I wrote you will see that I was saying just that. You are saying that any baby born within the second trimester will either die or suffer from a multitude of physical and mental problems I strongly disagree. Are you saying that all mothers who come into labour under 28 weeks would opt for an abortion if they knew the facts? Do you really think mothers that give birth to babies under 28 weeks don't know the facts? As far as corticosteroids, they can do huge good, especially for sticky lungs. Not all babies will respond but a lot will. You mean most not some will survive. And there are almost always complications. From here http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1212/05122012-More-premature-babies-surviving-but-disability-rates-unchanged-Marlow quote: It found that the number of babies born at 22-25 weeks and admitted to intensive care increased by 44 per cent during this period and overall survival increased by 13 per cent (from 40 to 53 per cent). There was no significant increase in survival of babies born before 24 weeks – the current legal limit for abortion – and the number of babies who experienced major health complications remained unchanged. The second study examined the health of the 2006 babies at three years of age and compared this with findings from the 1995 cohort at a similar age. It found that while 11 per cent more babies survived to age three without disability, the proportion of survivors born between 22–25 weeks with severe disability was about the same (18 per cent in 1995 and 19 per cent in 2006). There was also a relationship between gestation and the risk of disability, with babies born earlier being more likely to have serious health complications at three years of age. 28 weeks is not second trimester. Why do you continue to try and obfuscate the situation. 2nd trimester is 24 weeks and earlier and the preemies born before then have very low survival rates, 40% for 24 weeks and declining to less than 10% for 22 weeks. And yes I'm saying that most people would not choose to have a preemie suffer for hours, days or weeks with next to no chance that it would ever leave the hospital and if it does it would likely have lifelong disabilities.

tazzygirl -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/20/2013 4:58:41 PM)
The first trimester of pregnancy is week 1 through week 12, or about 3 months. The second trimester is week 13 to week 27. And the third trimester of pregnancy spans from week 28 to the birth. Which is why I keep saying late second into third. Obviously a 13 week old gestational fetus is not going to survive, even with the claims of a c-section being available. Born at 22 weeks: About 10% of babies survive 23 weeks: 50% to 66% of babies survive 24 weeks: 66% to 80% of babies survive 25 weeks: 75% to 85% of babies survive 26 weeks: Over 90% of babies survive Eighty-eight percent of abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, 2006. Only 11% of all abortion providers offer abortions at 24 weeks. Only 1.5% abortions after 21 weeks Nine in 10 abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy So she is arguing about 1.5% of the abortions in the US. Depending on the source, the number of abortions per year in the US run from 800,000 to 1.2 million. The good news for pro-life advocates is that abortions are on the decline. Abortions fell five percent nationwide in 2009, according to the most recent information from the CDC, the biggest drop in 10 years. http://www.lifenews.com/2013/01/18/55772015-abortions-in-america-since-roe-vs-wade-in-1973/ The pro-lifers will have everyone believe that because of their efforts, less abortions have occurred. Interesting how they do not discuss the availability of medications such as Plan B into the accounting which became readily available starting in 2006. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_contraception#Plan_B Amazing how those numbers actually fell since 2006, not 2009 as the lifenews would have you believe. http://www.nrlc.org/Factsheets/FS03_AbortionInTheUS.pdf I have no problem with someone taking a moral stance against abortion. If, morally, you dont approve of abortion, dont have one. I do take exception to someone twisting medical facts to attempt to prove their moral stance is correct.

DaddySatyr -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/21/2013 12:17:00 AM)
ABC News Story I would like to give an "honorable" mention to: quote: ORIGINAL Second-to-last paragraph in the above link The six Democrats supporting this legislation are Reps. Henry Cuellar (Texas), Dan Lipinski (Illinois), Jim Matheson (Utah), Mike McIntyre (North Carolina), Collin Peterson (Minnesota) and Nick Rahall (West Virginia). From what I hear, in a couple of these states (Utah and North Carolina) Democrats are an endangered species but, I would like to assume the best and congratulate these people for voting their conscience (ostensibly) no matter what the political cost. Kudos! Peace and comfort, Michael

MariaB -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/21/2013 2:56:33 AM)
Both sides are twisted. The pro-lifers twist and exaggerate and the pro abortionists twist and play down things. Only scientific papers can show an unbiased view. why do you call me 'she' and 'her'. My name is Maria and it was me, Marie who contributed to this thread. By referring to me as 'she' you are being condescending. Now weather that's deliberate or not, I don't know but I can't continue to debate and discuss like this. Just to re-iterate, I am against late term abortion on a healthy viable foetus on unintended pregnancies. (Private clinics across the western world still perform late abortions for that reason) I am against late second trimester abortion on a healthy viable foetus via dilation and extraction methods, when the mother could have a c-section. I am not anti abortion perse. On a side note' I have worked in both Obstetrics and Neonatology and whilst I don't claim to be an expert, I do have medical experience in this field.

tazzygirl -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/21/2013 5:07:10 AM)
quote: Both sides are twisted. The pro-lifers twist and exaggerate and the pro abortionists twist and play down things. Only scientific papers can show an unbiased view. And I am pro-choice. Not pro-life Not pro-abortionist Does anyone even use that? Here is the difference.... pro life believes in saving every child. A pro-abortionist would believe in killing every child. A pro-choice believes in every woman having the choice left to her and her physician. quote: why do you call me 'she' and 'her'. My name is Maria and it was me, Marie who contributed to this thread. By referring to me as 'she' you are being condescending. Now weather that's deliberate or not, I don't know but I can't continue to debate and discuss like this. Because I was talking to Ken when I used those pronouns. Bottom left hand of the corner of my post indicates who I am speaking too. He addressed you, and I addressed him. quote: Just to re-iterate, I am against late term abortion on a healthy viable foetus on unintended pregnancies. (Private clinics across the western world still perform late abortions for that reason) quote: I am against late second trimester abortion on a healthy viable foetus via dilation and extraction methods, when the mother could have a c-section. I dont know too many physicians who will do an abortion on a late term fetus who is healthy and viable. For one, in most states, its against the law if the mothers life is in danger. HOW that physician determines the best possible method of performing that abortion is between the woman and the physician. I am against a pro-lifer demanding a woman go through massive surgery to make the pro-lifer feel morally better. What makes you qualified to determine what procedure should be done when? quote: I am not anti abortion perse. You are pro-life quote: On a side note' I have worked in both Obstetrics and Neonatology and whilst I don't claim to be an expert, I do have medical experience in this field. So have I, and in the country you are discussing. You noticed I dont bring up France because I have not worked in France. But lets take a look. quote: Abortion in France is legal on demand up to 12-weeks after conception (14 weeks after the last menstrual period),[1][2] since the Veil Law in 1975. Abortions at later stages of pregnancy are allowed if two physicians certify that the abortion will be done to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; a risk to the life of the pregnant woman; or that the child will suffer from a particularly severe illness recognized as incurable. So your country cuts off on-demand abortion at 12 weeks. Bully for you. You have one law to deal with,. We have 52 different sets of laws. We have people demanding no abortion under any circumstance. quote: France was the first country to legalize the use of RU-486 as an abortifacient in 1988, allowing its use up to seven weeks of pregnancy. By one estimate, a quarter of all French abortions now use RU-486. We have people wanting to take away this as well in the US. Its called an abortion pill by some. quote: A pregnant girl under the age of 18 may ask for an abortion without consulting her parents first if she accompanied to the clinic by an adult of her choice, who must not tell her parents or any third party about the abortion Many states require mandatory reporting to parents for minors seekign abortions here. Many states require two physicians attesting to the need of an abortion past the age of 20 weeks, some state only viability. We have states with only one abortion clinic operating, meaning a trip across state for many women.... and some cant make the trip. I dont agree with late term (meaning past viability) abortions except for medical necessity. I dont agree with a 28 week abortion on demand. Our Supreme Court decided viability was the cut off point. However, viability isnt a clear cut week in pregnancy. Your country placed that at 12 weeks. I have never seen a 12 week old fetus survive. Post viability abortions are rare and not something I want to outlaw completely because there will be some religious jackass who decides to take it one step further and prevent a woman who truly medically needs an abortion from getting one, costing her her own life. I have no problems with a woman turning down an abortion. Many do. Sometimes they, and the baby, make it. Sometimes they dont. But that should be her decision.

tazzygirl -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/21/2013 5:10:19 AM)
quote: The six Republicans opposing the bill are Reps. Paul Broun (Georgia), Charles Dent (Pennsylvania), Rodney Frelinghuysen (New Jersey), Richard Hanna (New York), Jon Runyan (New Jersey) and Rob Woodall (Georgia). Lets hear a shout out for the 6 Republicans who feel they have no business inside a woman's womb for a second time.

Lucylastic -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/21/2013 5:17:38 AM)
Yep Tazzy Not voting their "conscience" but FOR half their constituents/voters rights to their own health decisions. I know he is just trolling but shit im not letting it pass simply because he is trolling.

tazzygirl -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/21/2013 5:20:50 AM)
When is that full moon over? gesh

Lucylastic -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/21/2013 5:25:04 AM)
I wish it were as simple as lunar cycles hon

DomKen -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/21/2013 9:18:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: The six Republicans opposing the bill are Reps. Paul Broun (Georgia), Charles Dent (Pennsylvania), Rodney Frelinghuysen (New Jersey), Richard Hanna (New York), Jon Runyan (New Jersey) and Rob Woodall (Georgia). Lets hear a shout out for the 6 Republicans who feel they have no business inside a woman's womb for a second time. Actually several voted against the bill because it allowed a rape and incest exception.

MariaB -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/22/2013 1:50:47 AM)
Actually I have never practised medicine in France. Sorry you waisted your time doing research on that!

tazzygirl -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/22/2013 1:51:38 AM)
I dont feel its a waste. Your profile says you are in France. Its a natural assumption. However, that doesnt make the information any less valid.. or clear.

Real0ne -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/22/2013 5:20:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Lets hear a shout out for the 6 Republicans who feel they have no business inside a woman's womb for a second time. IDIOTS! But they do because like guns, society has to deal with the discharge and there is a point where abortion becomes murder.

Lucylastic -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/22/2013 6:37:19 AM)
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njlauren -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/22/2013 12:37:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr Wow. People claim that a fetus can't feel pain during an abortion then, when it's damned-near proven with new evidence, the science worshippers insist that that isn't good enough and are hell-bent on murdering the unborn (pain or no pain), anyway. Wonderful people these are ... NOT. Peace and comfort, Michael Proven by who? The Holy Bible? The whole 20 week fetus feeling pain is based as far as I can tell on the claims of a couple of 'researchers', one of whom at least is a born again Christian who more than likely is looking for any 'proof' to try and ban abortions totally. Put it this way, there is a hell of a lot more consensus over global warming in the science community yet the same people who would claim this is 'proven' would deny global warming (in the climate science community, well over 90% accept global warming/climate change is going on, with the 20 week thing it is a handful of researchers). Using that as basis for an abortion ban would be like reversing health treatment for AIDS because a couple of researchers claim HIV has nothing to do with AIDS.....The claim that pain happens at 20 weeks reminds me of Bill Frist (supposedly an MD), standing on the floor of the House looking at Xrays of Terri Sciavo (when the religious right was trying to find a way to interfere in that case) and saying "There is something wrong, this is not a person in a vegetative state"...and when the autopsy was done, they found she literally had no higher brain left, she basically had a brainstem, period....banning a 20 week abortion based on claims that haven't been backed up would have been like preventing the husband from turning life support off of Terri Schiavo's body, both are based on non science but emotional prejudice. Caring people will do things based on facts, because when you do it based on religious belief, you end up fucking up other people's lives.

njlauren -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/22/2013 12:43:36 PM)
The only good news in all this is for people whom are disgusted with the GOP, which includes libertarian GOP types, independants and obviously democrats, because they are cutting their own throat. Their own internal deliberations and reports say that the GOP is increasingly seen as the party of angry white people in rural areas, religious extremists, racists and so forth, and gave an outline of how to broaden their appeal...and yet what the party and its leaders keep doing is playing to the tea party and other extremists, and it is going to kill them on a national level, they are going to become basically the old Dixiecrat party, not based on Jim Crowe, but in religious extremist/social issues and 'returning America to the good ole days' where whites were all you saw, where society had a narrowed view of what was a good thing, women were home having kids, minorities accepting their place, and sexual and social minorities better stay in the closet. Take a look at the demographics of the GOP, among young people especially, many of them would rather vote fot the American Nazis then the GOP......the GOP that exists in my area does so as a local party, which is totally different than the national one. Keep appealing to the rednecks, old people, appealing to bigotry and ideas of 'the good old days', and it will drive everyone else away from them.

njlauren -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/22/2013 7:17:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB The risk of death from abortion increases as pregnancy progresses. Abortion complications can result in maternal death. Since abortion was legalized in the United States in 1973, more than 400 women are known to have died from legal abortions.[4] The risk of death is higher in later stages of pregnancy. A study of national data on abortion-related mortality from 1988 to 1997 found that at 13-15 weeks of gestation, the rate of abortion-related mortality was 14.7 per 100,000; at 16-20 weeks, the rate rose to 29.5 per 100,000; and at or after 21 weeks, the rate reached 76.6 deaths per 100,000.[5] Medical knowledge acquired over the last four decades demonstrates that abortion is riskier than childbirth for women and justifies a prohibition at 20 weeks based on concerns for maternal safety. Existing medical data confirms that abortion is increasingly less safe than childbirth as pregnancy advances. (See Section I.) The long-term risks of abortion justify a prohibition to ensure maternal safety, in which the states have a compelling interest “once an abortion may be more dangerous than childbirth.” (City of Akron v. Akron Center for Reproductive Health, 462 U.S. at 460 (1983) (O‘Connor, J., dissenting). http://www.aul.org/womens-health-defense-actlate-term-abortion-ban/ In 30 years 400 women have died from abortion, or a bit over 10/year. Given the number of abortions performed each year, which the religious right says is 1 million, then that means 10 deaths out of 1 million performed..and of course, we also don't know if the abortions caused the death, or for example, of those 10 who die from abortions, how many of them would die if they had given live birth.....a lot more then 10 women a year die giving birth to children, so if you want to use that as justification not to have abortion, then you should ban live childbirth, too, because I would bet the number of women dying in live chidbirth as a percentage is much higher than 1 in 100,000.

njlauren -> RE: 20 weeks abortion bill passes the HOR (6/22/2013 7:20:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB The risk of death from abortion increases as pregnancy progresses. Abortion complications can result in maternal death. Since abortion was legalized in the United States in 1973, more than 400 women are known to have died from legal abortions.[4] The risk of death is higher in later stages of pregnancy. A study of national data on abortion-related mortality from 1988 to 1997 found that at 13-15 weeks of gestation, the rate of abortion-related mortality was 14.7 per 100,000; at 16-20 weeks, the rate rose to 29.5 per 100,000; and at or after 21 weeks, the rate reached 76.6 deaths per 100,000.[5] Medical knowledge acquired over the last four decades demonstrates that abortion is riskier than childbirth for women and justifies a prohibition at 20 weeks based on concerns for maternal safety. Existing medical data confirms that abortion is increasingly less safe than childbirth as pregnancy advances. (See Section I.) The long-term risks of abortion justify a prohibition to ensure maternal safety, in which the states have a compelling interest “once an abortion may be more dangerous than childbirth.” (City of Akron v. Akron Center for Reproductive Health, 462 U.S. at 460 (1983) (O‘Connor, J., dissenting). http://www.aul.org/womens-health-defense-actlate-term-abortion-ban/ One thing I've learned over the years, all anti abortion groups lie all the time. For instance this stat is true, 400 women have died from complications of abortion since 1973. However they fail to put that into perspective. In the years since 1973 more than 56 million abortions have been peformed. 400/56 million = a rate of 0.0000007 maternal deaths per abortion or 0.7 per 100,000 that compares to 9.1 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births in the US. Abortion is roughly 10 times safer than giving birth in the US. Thanks, Ken, I thought I was the only one who spotted that..or whether how many of those 400 if they had had a live birth would have died anyway (for example, if a woman had a weak blood vessel that blew out during childbirth or the stress of an abortion).

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