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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 9:05:38 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

By West European standards, the typical American household and the typical Chinese household both live in abject poverty


A simple search of the net for information will show the relative standard of living and although Norway is slightly higher than the US we have 62 times the population...far from abject poverty...and a much greater feat.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/26/2013 9:14:49 PM >

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 11:01:46 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:


From where I'm standing, we have a problem that is (a) real, (b) not pressing, (c) not urgent, (d) obscured by vocal idiots on all sides, (e) easily solvable on paper, (f) impossible to solve for the currently governing party, (g) politically difficult to solve, (h) well documented, (i) not going away, (j) getting worse so long as it's left unattended-to, (k) will be disasterous if we don't solve it, (l) is possible to turn into an absolute strength for this country if we actually do solve it, and (m) has nothing to do with 3-4% of the population being Muslims. Thus, I'd like to call it an opportunity, but I'm not comfortable with the situation.


Well said.

Someone famous recently said
We don't have a problem with the Muslim religion, we have a problem *in* the muslim religion. Perhaps that sums it up. I think your post is fairly accurate Aswad, although with my study of history I am not as sanguine as you about the ease of assimilation.

Culturally, islam is dominated far more that think along tribal lines - and have never integrated along national lines.
Second, islam has a history of assassination being a viable tool of statecraft. Over and over again assassination was used as a tool of statecraft. The famous cult of assassins was muslim; the word springs from arabic/persian ismaeli. Time and again monarchs, imams, mufti's are assasinated. The muslim culture has strong rules on blood debts, which encourages blood feuds and vendettas.

I certainly know that what I say will not be well accepted - and I will probably be labelled racist for not believing that all races are identical even though the proof is self evident and before our eyes. (White men really can't jump - at least not compared to black as one example.) Similarly, norwegians and scandinavians who had to deal with 4 months of snow - and hence had to work and stockpile and evolve patience in confined areas evolve differently than arabic areas.

I went around the country in the late 80's and was a key note speaker saying that the next biggest challenge was going to be the clash of western values with the muslim world. I said this based on
a) The rapid transfer of oil wealth to the arab cultures
b) The sponsorship of the saudis of wahabi ism.
c). The insularity of the arab street and the rulers demonizing westerners.
d) Arab sponsorship of terrorism - such as Nidal, such as the achilles Lauro, and iranian sponsorship of suicide bombers.
Somewhere around there KQKhan started getting factored in.

I don't see anything to make me more optimistic. In fact I am quite a great deal more pessimistic.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 6/26/2013 11:02:05 PM >

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 11:36:46 PM   
YN


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Status: offline 		European culture must be especially weak, if a relative handful of Arabs can immigrate and then overwhelm it.

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 11:44:03 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

European culture must be especially weak, if a relative handful of Arabs can immigrate and then overwhelm it.


Perhaps so. China certainly surpressed Falun Gong with millions of adherents fairly well. Of course Europe doesn't have the recent history of re-education camps and police crack downs against religion.
Or conversely, perhaps muslim immigrants really are especially difficult to assimilate.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 6/26/2013 11:48:12 PM >

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 11:46:52 PM   
YN


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Status: offline 		There have been Muslims in Latin America since the very earliest days, and the only place the Spanish had problems assimilating them was as slaves on slave plantations.

< Message edited by YN -- 6/26/2013 11:47:09 PM >

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 11:51:26 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

There have been Muslims in Latin America since the very earliest days, and the only place the Spanish had problems assimilating them was as slaves on slave plantations.



The reason that Muslims and Jews for that matter ended up in South America was because the Catholic Monarchs Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon decreed that the Muslims (both Moors and muladis) and Jews of Spain either had to convert to Catholicism, depart from the country, or face death for defiance of the Monarch.

As far as making them slaves, what history book are you reading?

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 11:52:20 PM   
Phydeaux


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Status: offline 		Yep. Spain used a little thing called 'The Inquisition' to do so. Widely not viewed as appropriate today.

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/27/2013 12:02:28 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

European culture must be especially weak, if a relative handful of Arabs can immigrate and then overwhelm it.

:)

Exactly. It is not, therefore, not a risk of overwhelming. BTW Arab is not Muslim, there is much more "immigration from Muslim countries" as "Muslim immigration" and "Arab immigration".

For example my both colleagues here in my company who come from a Muslim country. Both are Atheists and tolerant with Muslims and Christians. More than me, actually.

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/27/2013 12:04:06 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
the only place the Spanish had problems assimilating them [Muslims] was as slaves on slave plantations.

As far as making them slaves, what history book are you reading?
.
Interested on the answer. As Spaniard who loves history (see my profile) I was also like .

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If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/27/2013 12:05:22 AM   
YN


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

There have been Muslims in Latin America since the very earliest days, and the only place the Spanish had problems assimilating them was as slaves on slave plantations.



The reason that Muslims and Jews for that matter ended up in South America was because the Catholic Monarchs Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon decreed that the Muslims (both Moors and muladis) and Jews of Spain either had to convert to Catholicism, depart from the country, or face death for defiance of the Monarch.

As far as making them slaves, what history book are you reading?



I would guess I a more familiar with the history of the Spanish imperialism here than you are, seeing I have ancestors who were among these Muslims and Jews (conversos) sent to the Americas. The Spaniards also sent heretics and criminals as well.

And the first slave revolt in the Americas was by Muslims (Santo Domingo 1522.)

quote:

The first recorded instances of resistance were in 1503, when Nicolás de Ovando, Hispaniola’s first royal governor, wrote to Isabella requesting that she prevent further shipments to the colony of enslaved Black ladinos, or persons possessing knowledge of Spanish or Portuguese languages and cultures, but who also often had connections to either Senegambia, Islam, or both. De Ovando had arrived earlier in April 1502 and was already complaining that the ladinos on the island were “a source of scandal to the Indians, and some had fled their owners,” establishing maroon communities in the mountains.


The first large-scale slave revolt recorded in the Americas occurred in Santo Domingo in 1522 and was led by a group of enslaved Muslims from the Wolof nation.

And the Portuguese had similar troubles in Brasil.

So which Anglo history book are you reading?

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/27/2013 12:11:00 AM   
YN


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Status: offline 		It seems the Arabs are the ones complained of.

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/27/2013 12:12:55 AM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		I stand corrected.

I took world history classes in college, but honestly do not remember this particular incident. The only slaves of "European" origin that I remember were indentured servants or convicts.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/27/2013 12:16:18 AM   
YN


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Yep. Spain used a little thing called 'The Inquisition' to do so. Widely not viewed as appropriate today.


They brought it (the Inquisition) to the Americas as well. Among the many torts leading to revolt by all against their rule.

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/27/2013 12:20:58 AM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		Getting bodies here was trouble for the Europeans and they enslaved each other and their misfits and sent them here.

The English sent up to a million Irish as slaves after conquering Ireland, the French sent the Huguenots, the Dutch sent religious and political dissidents, etc.

Here is a sample - The Irish Slave Trade – The Forgotten “White” Slaves

< Message edited by YN -- 6/27/2013 12:48:52 AM >

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/27/2013 1:37:59 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn]

It seems to have escaped notice here that whatever foisted-upon 'statecraft' was not actually an "option" for those colonized. Or did you miss out on that fabled recent endeavor into imposing democracy, which is actually so hated in our own land?


Not every colony was founded in this way though. Much of the British Empire was founded on trade. Indeed, the US revolution was fought mainly by those with a European heritage.

quote:


How bizarre that is. Maybe the 'left' you're acquainted with are doing better drugs than those I'm acquainted with (leaving your own medications out of it for the instance), but the putative 'mutual benefit' in that Faustian deal has been both accepted practice and accepted knowledge for decades. Who gives a crap about Israel, other than being a ready and eager and ongoing source of antagonism to countries that stand over oil that Western countries have always considered their own.


It is also nonsense to think Israel was founded for the reasons you mentioned.

quote:


British and French and American et al. colonialism has done a world of good to the the Middle East, as we can see now, eh?

We see now how Egypt and India and Vietnam and Korea and S. Africa and Uruguay and Nigeria and etc. kneel before us in abject gratitude.


And yet the British Commonwealth still constitutes some fifty odd member States, including India and South Africa. Egypt was never a British Colony.




Atta boy!

CM's premier ankle biter, come to the fore yet once more. Shock the world, if you ever had anything useful to say, or to any useful purpose.

Commodities grabbing and control of mercantile interests has nothing to do with what you are saying, of course. How could it?

If the venture didn't culminate in that particular object of exploitation being officially designated as a colony, then it wasn't colonization.

Got it.


quote:

Egypt was never a British Colony.



Thanks to Eisenhower.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/27/2013 1:51:45 AM >

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/27/2013 3:38:12 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Edwynn........ Ignore that facts, carry on with the ignorance. I tried to set you straight and this is the best you can do ?

Nothing in your post above refutes my points, or indeed changes history.

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/27/2013 5:26:06 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Getting bodies here was trouble for the Europeans and they enslaved each other and their misfits and sent them here.

The English sent up to a million Irish as slaves after conquering Ireland, the French sent the Huguenots, the Dutch sent religious and political dissidents, etc.

Here is a sample - The Irish Slave Trade – The Forgotten “White” Slaves


The link is hardly accurate. James II wasnt even born until 1633, your link states he made his "proclomation" in 1625. The fact the aurthor cant even get this correct must make one doubt his accuracy.This doesnt even cover the fact he was in favour of Catholicism, hence William of Orange being offered the Crown.

The link is correct about indentured slaves though, not just Irish but the poor in general. The inaccurate term Scots-Irish is often used but just as many were Welsh and English. Some 80% of emigrants from Great Britain, prior to the revolution arrived in this way. The indentured servants signed up due to little work being available at home. The deal was that they had to pay off thier fair before obtaining freedom, much the same deal people traffickers use today. Convicts were also sent over, many on trumped up charges, especially tradesmen who were much needed.

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/27/2013 5:35:06 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

The link is hardly accurate. James II wasnt even born until 1633, your link states he made his "proclomation" in 1625. The fact the aurthor cant even get this correct must make one doubt his accuracy.This doesnt even cover the fact he was in favour of Catholicism, hence William of Orange being offered the Crown.



Not to mention dodgy use of the word 'Britain' - looking suspiciously like he means 'England'. Oh well, it's not as if we've not seen that before.


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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/27/2013 5:54:22 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Peon, some of our colonial cousins forget there was such a thing as "English Poor", at the turn of the 19th centuary a third of those in the England were living in poverty. The workhouse, and it`s Scottish equivalent, The Poor House, were still in existance until the end of WW2, indeed Orphans were still being sent to Australia as cheap labour on farms until the 1970s.

The problem with far left ideology is Communism hasnt shown itself to work any better.

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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/27/2013 6:33:36 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

So it bothers you the Chinese treat the United States the way the United States and Europeans have treated the rest of the world for centuries?

You are the among those here justifying imperialism, so you should not complain about being paid in your own coins.

The Chinese are not treating the United States in the fashion you surmise. The employment of slave labor in Asia is actively engaged by American and European corporations with the assistance of the Asian states. China allows her people to be exploited, to live in crowded, polluted urban slums and work long hours with little respite. China allows massive migration from its rural regions and withholds urban passports for its citizens, depriving them of healthcare and education. Is that a triumph for China over America?

Was it China's triumph that 1000 Bangledeshi workers were trapped and killed at their workplace? I don't think so. Such exploitation of labour is not new of course neither in the West nor in Asia. But it is hardly a triumph of statesmanship. You may wish that China emerges as the more powerful nation but don't hold your breath. It will not happen soon.


It will happen around 2020.

Can't you give me the date and time?

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