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RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 3:13:12 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

So it bothers you the Chinese treat the United States the way the United States and Europeans have treated the rest of the world for centuries?

You are the among those here justifying imperialism, so you should not complain about being paid in your own coins.

The Chinese are not treating the United States in the fashion you surmise. The employment of slave labor in Asia is actively engaged by American and European corporations with the assistance of the Asian states. China allows her people to be exploited, to live in crowded, polluted urban slums and work long hours with little respite. China allows massive migration from its rural regions and withholds urban passports for its citizens, depriving them of healthcare and education. Is that a triumph for China over America?

Was it China's triumph that 1000 Bangledeshi workers were trapped and killed at their workplace? I don't think so. Such exploitation of labour is not new of course neither in the West nor in Asia. But it is hardly a triumph of statesmanship. You may wish that China emerges as the more powerful nation but don't hold your breath. It will not happen soon.


It will happen around 2020.


Not a prayer by 2020. Maybe by 2025. More likely 2030. Possibly never.

The most powerful yardstick is a difficult thing to quantify. China already makes more steel, more concrete. Has more internet users.

On the flip side.

China averages 1/4 the per capita income of the US.
China has a rapidly aging demographic.
China has much more political turmoil. The communist party is barely riding the tiger.
China has much bigger proglems with corruption.
China is an environmental disaster.
Much of china's population is illiterate, and china's social institutions have not kept pace with the transition from third to first world economy.
On top of that, china is sitting on a real estate bubble the likes of which the world has never seen.
And despite china's rapid militarization, it has nowhere near the military capability of the soviet union, let alone the US. Carrier targetted ICBMs or not.

Much of china's rapid progress as been the capturing of low hanging fruit. The ease of capturing those low hanging fruit will get harder and harder. Already chinese citizen complain of the environmental disasters. Chinese who make a million or two - a substantial number of them emigrate. All this to say that china's ascent has been amazing - but the pace is and will slow.

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 3:24:47 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Immigration doesnt equal invasion. Mulims born in the UK dont equal invasion. Your statement is rather racist to say the least.


As the Devil's Advocate General, while I agree with the conclusion in what you're saying as far as the "intentions" behind his statements, I feel that I must point out that using the term "invasion" to refer to something other than military invasion is not much different from using the term "racist" to refer to something other than race based discrimination. I would probably have preferred to see people using a term like "cultural invasion" if they want to go with the "invasion" theme, but it's not at all unclear what is meant. Where you're right is in that it's also not at all unclear why it is meant.

In polite company, we use the term "demographic shift", although it would perhaps be more useful to call it a "cultural shift", as opposed to the baseline cultural drift that occurs in any country (and at a higher rate in countries with mixing through travel, trade and so forth), a matter of sufficient quantitative differences becoming qualitative differences.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:26:14 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

China averages 1/4 the per capita income of the US.


Average is pointless. The typical Chinese household has half the income of the typical US household.

quote:

China is an environmental disaster.


They're also taking steps to deal with this, such as investing heavily in nuclear power and researching thorium power. Also, the US isn't exactly a model of environmental awareness or sustainable anything.

quote:

Much of china's population is illiterate, and china's social institutions have not kept pace with the transition from third to first world economy.


Don't mistake China for a homogenous country.

Mainland China has a literacy rate of 98%, compared to the USA having 99% and Norway having 100%, so mainland China isn't further behind the USA than the USA is behind Norway. All 3 of them are doing great. However, the Tibet autonomous region has a literacy of only 62%, and several of the administrative divisions (e.g. Taiwan, Hong Kong and Mongolia) are in the mid 90s, pulling down the average. You already pointed out the aging population, and I'm fairly certain the rural and elderly population account for most of the illiteracy.

Social inequality is the main issue here, and it's equally present in the USA, where the typical household income is one sixth of the average household income. Tibet isn't going to look anything like Beijing for the forseeable future, and this is to be expected. For comparison, if Israel were to integrate the Palestinian population, the load on the Israeli infrastructure would double overnight, completely overwhelming it. China has far fewer challenges to meet on this point than either of those two countries.

quote:

On top of that, china is sitting on a real estate bubble the likes of which the world has never seen.


You must never have been to Norway. The world has definitely seen the likes of it.

quote:

And despite china's rapid militarization, it has nowhere near the military capability of the soviet union, let alone the US. Carrier targetted ICBMs or not.


It has nuclear, and lacks the ambition of being world police. Thus, what it has is sufficient for its needs.

quote:

Much of china's rapid progress as been the capturing of low hanging fruit.


Actually, this was true, of a phase in Chinese history, but that phase ended while Latin was still a living language, ages ago. They expanded more than we did, early on, and so exhausted their surface resources before they developed the tech to harness subsurface resources. Later, we contributed our tech and lifted them out of that slump. Now, they're no longer in that position, and have what they need to keep going. As such, currently, while China has a ways to go in some areas, it has secured dominance in several key areas that will shape the future.

Have you ever visited the Shēnzèn special economic zone?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:33:25 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Its hardly a cultural invasion though. Muslims have been in the UK in large numbers for many years. I cant abide by those making out its some sort of new idea recently planned.

As for my use of the term racist, I think it fits the posts referred to on this thread, and as such, I stand by it.


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:37:18 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		I didn't object to your use of the term, Politesub.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:43:42 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

I didn't object to your use of the term, Politesub.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




I took it from your post that you did.

My apologies If I misunderstood. .

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:43:47 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		But can you see where a way of life is being challenged? I am not saying it is bad just a fact. Reading some of the stories coming out of Europe on immigration I get the impression that many Muslims are not integrating their cultures into the existing one. This is creating friction between the two. Pointing this out is not racists is it?

So far at least here in the US immigrants of all types seem to rejoice in their new freedoms and opportunities and have added to our culture rather than try to replace it. Oh we have problems from time to time no way to deny this but on the whole they are becoming Americans.. if you get my meaning. I don't believe things are going as smoothly in Europe.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/26/2013 4:45:47 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:47:12 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

But can you see where a way of life is being challenged? I am not saying it is bad just a fact. Reading some of the stories coming out of Europe on immigration I get the impression that many Muslims are not integrating their cultures into the existing one. This is creating friction between the two. Pointing this out is not racists is it?

So far at least here in the US immigrants of all types seem to rejoice in their new freedoms and opportunities and have added to our culture rather than try to replace it. Oh we have problems from time to time no way to deny this but on the whole they are becoming Americans.. if you get my meaning.

Butch


No I cant Butch. Just as i dont see our way of life being challenged by any other Religion in the UK.

We have plenty of hotheads both Christian and Muslim spouting on about this, but the majority dont see it as an issue. If anything change is more influenced by the financial climate.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:52:16 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Do you think the situation in the UK may be different than other parts of Europe?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:53:03 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

China averages 1/4 the per capita income of the US.


Average is pointless. The typical Chinese household has half the income of the typical US household.

quote:

China is an environmental disaster.


They're also taking steps to deal with this, such as investing heavily in nuclear power and researching thorium power. Also, the US isn't exactly a model of environmental awareness or sustainable anything.

quote:

Much of china's population is illiterate, and china's social institutions have not kept pace with the transition from third to first world economy.


Don't mistake China for a homogenous country.

Mainland China has a literacy rate of 98%, compared to the USA having 99% and Norway having 100%, so mainland China isn't further behind the USA than the USA is behind Norway. All 3 of them are doing great. However, the Tibet autonomous region has a literacy of only 62%, and several of the administrative divisions (e.g. Taiwan, Hong Kong and Mongolia) are in the mid 90s, pulling down the average. You already pointed out the aging population, and I'm fairly certain the rural and elderly population account for most of the illiteracy.

Social inequality is the main issue here, and it's equally present in the USA, where the typical household income is one sixth of the average household income. Tibet isn't going to look anything like Beijing for the forseeable future, and this is to be expected. For comparison, if Israel were to integrate the Palestinian population, the load on the Israeli infrastructure would double overnight, completely overwhelming it. China has far fewer challenges to meet on this point than either of those two countries.

quote:

On top of that, china is sitting on a real estate bubble the likes of which the world has never seen.


You must never have been to Norway. The world has definitely seen the likes of it.

quote:

And despite china's rapid militarization, it has nowhere near the military capability of the soviet union, let alone the US. Carrier targetted ICBMs or not.


It has nuclear, and lacks the ambition of being world police. Thus, what it has is sufficient for its needs.

quote:

Much of china's rapid progress as been the capturing of low hanging fruit.


Actually, this was true, of a phase in Chinese history, but that phase ended while Latin was still a living language, ages ago. They expanded more than we did, early on, and so exhausted their surface resources before they developed the tech to harness subsurface resources. Later, we contributed our tech and lifted them out of that slump. Now, they're no longer in that position, and have what they need to keep going. As such, currently, while China has a ways to go in some areas, it has secured dominance in several key areas that will shape the future.

Have you ever visited the Shēnzèn special economic zone?

IWYW,
— Aswad.


I agree with much of what you said. China is doing x,y and z. None of these things will be completed soon, ie, in time to make china the most powerful nation on the planet by 2020.

And yes. I've visited much of china. korean. japan. phillipines and norway - not to mention more than 80 other nations.

But this part
quote:


Actually, this was true, of a phase in Chinese history, but that phase ended while Latin was still a living language, ages ago. They expanded more than we did, early on, and so exhausted their surface resources before they developed the tech to harness subsurface resources. Later, we contributed our tech and lifted them out of that slump. Now, they're no longer in that position, and have what they need to keep going. As such, currently, while China has a ways to go in some areas, it has secured dominance in several key areas that will shape the future.


is laughable. Let me show you a picture:
http://www.google.com/#output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=china+gdp&oq=china+gdp&gs_l=hp.3..0l4.9891.12703.0.12937.13.11.2.0.0.0.297.2250.0j4j6.10.0...0.0...1c.1.18.psy-ab.SHWy7a2ZGpU&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48340889,d.eWU&fp=ced7cd0ff581f505&biw=1024&bih=585

Chinese GDP was miniscule as late as 2000. The advancement of chinese society has happened in the last dozen years. Hardly since latin was a dead language.

And the present rate of growth will slow.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 6/26/2013 5:04:33 PM >

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:53:34 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

My apologies If I misunderstood. .


I presumably wasn't too clear, so the fault is entirely mine.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:54:43 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Butch, you also need to remember the percentage of Muslims in the UK is five times higher than in the US, so maybe thats why people think it is noticable. From my own perspective, I grew up in South London and it has always been multicultural. And to a lesser degree right back to Roman times. Most people just want to live in peace and get on with there own life.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:55:53 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

But can you see where a way of life is being challenged? I am not saying it is bad just a fact. Reading some of the stories coming out of Europe on immigration I get the impression that many Muslims are not integrating their cultures into the existing one. This is creating friction between the two. Pointing this out is not racists is it?

So far at least here in the US immigrants of all types seem to rejoice in their new freedoms and opportunities and have added to our culture rather than try to replace it. Oh we have problems from time to time no way to deny this but on the whole they are becoming Americans.. if you get my meaning.

Butch


No I cant Butch. Just as i dont see our way of life being challenged by any other Religion in the UK.

We have plenty of hotheads both Christian and Muslim spouting on about this, but the majority dont see it as an issue. If anything change is more influenced by the financial climate.



Really? You don't remember Rowan (archbishop of canterbury) saying that sharia law would have to be implimented in england? Or that some areas in england were no-go areas for non muslims?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7232661.stm

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 6/26/2013 4:56:52 PM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 4:58:47 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		The media here in the states has reported on the cultural friction in Europe with little editorializing or detail so it is hard to draw conclusions.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 5:02:16 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Do you think the situation in the UK may be different than other parts of Europe?

Butch


I cant say for certain about individual countries. Although the pew foundations figures for 2010 show the UK having a slighly lower (4.8%) Muslim poulation than Europe in general (6%)

What isnt helping is the credit crunch, which allows the right to focus on Muslims and unemployment.
Phoenixpower, Aswad and a few others may be able to enlighten us.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 5:07:04 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Really? You don't remember Rowan (archbishop of canterbury) saying that sharia law would have to be implimented in england? Or that some areas in england were no-go areas for non muslims?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7232661.stm



Changed your name but not your style huh Dawg.

I see you still cant read context and even attribute Archbishop Rowan to saying something he never said...... the clue is in your own link.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 5:11:46 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		Hey politesub

I ignored you before when you said I changed my name but not my style.
I've never changed my name and never been banished. And if you keep with the allegation I'll report it.

Have a nice day.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 5:15:25 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		The reason I bring this up is a survey I recently read that says that well over half the Muslims in the US believe there is more than one faith path to heaven... where in Europe and Africa the vast majority think only Muslims are moral and you must be one to enter heaven... I can see where this could produce friction.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 5:17:47 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I found the article... here it is if interested.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/05/01/muslims-america-abroad-global-survey/2125993/

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Evils of colonialism and 'post-colonialism'. - 6/26/2013 5:32:35 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Hey politesub

I ignored you before when you said I changed my name but not my style.
I've never changed my name and never been banished. And if you keep with the allegation I'll report it.

Have a nice day.



You have mail.

My point raised about Rowans remarks still stand. he only raised the issue of some laws possibly changing, to allow Sharia Courts to act in the same way as those used by the Jewish faith to settle minor disputes. Criminal Law wont change. It wasnt Rowan who made the "no go areas" remark either, it was The Bishop of Rochester. .

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 160
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