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RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 11:40:06 AM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The prosecution can show that Zimmerman never tried to run away, and that disqualifies him from self-defense, since he provoked the whole thing. Florida law is clear. He needed to have exhausted every option. And no-one buys that Trayvon Martin was just some crazy black kid who snapped. They guy hopped up on amphetamines is much more likely to have snapped.




Case law shows that simply being weak kneed and wobbly is sufficient to have no avenue of reasonable retreat, per Jenkins vs State 2006.

And there is still the issue that no evidence exists of George legally being the aggressor.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 641
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 11:41:48 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		2.0 cm and 0.5 cm scratches doesn't imply brain damage.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 642
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 11:43:22 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

aggressor must exhaust all reasonable avenues of retreat


This part of the statute only applies to the aggressor...Zimmerman says he was attacked and so far the evidence supports his version. If true then that part does not apply to him and the right to use deadly force was allowed under the dumb assed law.

butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/30/2013 12:39:23 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 643
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 11:43:43 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		The legal standard isn't AGGRESSOR... Since George PROVOKED the incident ( e.g.: If George never left his car.... ) and didn't exhaust every avenue of retreat, it isn't under Florida Law self defense.

Remember, Black kids have a REASONABLE FEAR for their safety when being chased by a Crazy Ass Cracker who -- while he might have a gun -- doesn't have a badge.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 644
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 11:44:42 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The legal standard isn't AGGRESSOR... Since George PROVOKED the incident ( e.g.: If George never left his car.... ) and didn't exhaust every avenue of retreat, it isn't under Florida Law self defense.

Remember, Black kids have a REASONABLE FEAR for their safety when being chased by a Crazy Ass Cracker who -- while he might have a gun -- doesn't have a badge.


No evidence exists of George legally provoking the encounter.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 645
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 11:46:48 AM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

The legal standard isn't AGGRESSOR


It most certainly is my friend... specifically listed... check it out there is a link to that particular section earlier in the thread.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 646
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 11:47:43 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		The real beauty of this is that by charging it the way she did, and not mentioning 776, Corey sets it up so that if Zimmerman wants 776 protection, HE needs to bring it up, and then he's going to have to testify. Once he's on the stand, all the holes in his story come out. ( If you're getting your head bashed in on concrete so bad you needed to kill the kid, why is the kid's body more than a body length away from the concrete ? )

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 647
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 11:51:50 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Chapter 776: JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—

The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself., unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force

"reasonably" means that YOU AND I must feel, after getting a 2.0 cm and 0.5 cm scratch, that we are in imminent danger of death or g.b.h. Just one more of Zimmerman's claims I ain't buying. The EMTs doing a neurological screen right after the killing really establish that his brains weren't scrambled.


The prosecutors only need to prove that it's extremely unlikely that Zimmerman need to shoot Martin to save his own life.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 6/30/2013 11:55:24 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 648
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 12:05:12 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—


Read my friend... this is the header of this part of the statute.

It is a different set of rules if assaulted... check it out or I will post a link

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 649
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 12:09:31 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I'm pretty comfortable that the reasonable ladies on the jury won't have any trouble understanding the clear english meaning, and how that any black kid in the south would be terrified of someone following them at night -- given the historical context and all. Just ask, "Would you have been scared if this guy working out at the Martial Arts Gym 3 days a week for over a year was following YOU that night?"

That "MMA Training" really does make it look like he went looking for a fight.

Game over, man. Game over.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 6/30/2013 12:10:21 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 650
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 12:14:22 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		How would I know he was a martial arts instructor... and I already said what I would do and I believe what we all should do in that situation... but the worse thing to do was confront Zimmerman.

Now before we go on and on... show me a law where it says you cannot follow someone... then show me another law where you can't ask someone what are you doing here... then show me another law that says you have to run before you can defend yourself if attacked.

quote:

clear english meaning


The meaning is specifically spelled out for each type of altercation and I'm sure the defense will be sure the jury understands this.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/30/2013 12:21:35 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 651
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 12:23:59 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The prosecution can show that Zimmerman never tried to run away, and that disqualifies him from self-defense,

wrong

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Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 652
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 12:27:00 PM   
BitYakin


Posts: 882
Joined: 10/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

If Zimmerman approached Martin and grabbed him by the shoulder to turn him around and demanded to know what he was doing, for instance (and IMO what likely happened), then he has no recourse to self defense.


POOPYCOCK
the girl testfied that martin spoke first, when is the last time you or you saw someone speak to someone with thier back turned to the person they are speaking to

sure maybe clint eastwood makes an offhand comment to someone as he walks away at the end of a conversation, but I have never seen anyone INITIATE a conversation of any nature without facing the person they are speaking to!

this implies evidence be dammed you have made up your mind and nothing is going to change it!

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 653
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 12:27:27 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		So. Your position is:

1. Florida's SYG law means you do not have to retreat if you can.
2. Zimmerman is claiming that he could not have retreated and is, therefore, not making a SYG defense.

QED, Florida had a generally applicable duty to retreat.

Interesting.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 654
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 12:28:54 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"Would you have been scared if this guy working out at the Martial Arts Gym 3 days a week for over a year was following YOU that night?"

That "MMA Training" really does make it look like he went looking for a fight.

Game over, man. Game over.

If he had any kind of martial arts training, he should ask for a refund because he SUCKED.
Letting a scrawny assed teenager get a mount while you're armed AND supposedly trained?

Please God tell me that guy won't ever pass those genes along.

Whoever signed off on his CC permit should ask for it back as well because he did everydamnthing wrong.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 655
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 12:29:34 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

If you and another person are struggling for the gun and either you or the other person pull the trigger without full control of it you cannot claim self defense.


If you and another person are struggling for the gun and you fire it intentionally, you can claim self-defense.
Has Z claimed the gun went off accidentally?

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 656
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 12:30:17 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The legal standard isn't AGGRESSOR... Since George PROVOKED the incident ( e.g.: If George never left his car.... ) and didn't exhaust every avenue of retreat, it isn't under Florida Law self defense.

Remember, Black kids have a REASONABLE FEAR for their safety when being chased by a Crazy Ass Cracker who -- while he might have a gun -- doesn't have a badge.


No evidence exists of George legally provoking the encounter.


Interesting racism, there. So, a white person, walking down a street, being followed by a black teenager can turn the street into a free-fire zone because they have a "reasonable fear" too?

Racist thinking is racist, I don't care which side of the coin one is trying to promote.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 657
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 12:31:50 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

That's why he has to establish he wasn't legally the aggressor


Change that to: "That's why the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was legally the aggressor" and I think you've got something.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 658
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 12:38:54 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The real beauty of this is that by charging it the way she did, and not mentioning 776, Corey sets it up so that if Zimmerman wants 776 protection, HE needs to bring it up, and then he's going to have to testify. Once he's on the stand, all the holes in his story come out. ( If you're getting your head bashed in on concrete so bad you needed to kill the kid, why is the kid's body more than a body length away from the concrete ? )


Untrue. Judge Nelson actually had a case overturned because she didn't give the self defense instructions when the defendant didn't testify.

The prosecution is making it very easy for the defense to not have to put George on the stand.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 659
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 12:41:16 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I'm pretty comfortable that the reasonable ladies on the jury won't have any trouble understanding the clear english meaning, and how that any black kid in the south would be terrified of someone following them at night -- given the historical context and all. Just ask, "Would you have been scared if this guy working out at the Martial Arts Gym 3 days a week for over a year was following YOU that night?"

That "MMA Training" really does make it look like he went looking for a fight.

Game over, man. Game over.


That MMA training was primarily aerobics. George's trainer called him soft, and said he wasn't remotely ready to start training in the ring.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 660
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