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RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:01:42 PM   
BitYakin


Posts: 882
Joined: 10/15/2005
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quote:

If there was any historical context of the KKK lynching white kids ( who aren't jews, I guess ) then please share it.


no I cannot, but ever heard of the black panthers?

Carrying weapons openly and making threats against police officers, for example, chants like "The Revolution has come, it's time to pick up the gun. Off the pigs!",[63] helped create the Panthers' reputation as a violent organization.

Cleaver and Newton put together a plan to send a group of about 30 Panthers led by Seale from Oakland to Sacramento to protest the bill. The group entered the assembly carrying their weapons, an incident which was widely publicized,

On October 28, 1967,[65] Oakland police officer John Frey was shot to death in an altercation with Huey P. Newton during a traffic stop. In the stop, Newton and backup officer Herbert Heanes also suffered gunshot wounds. Newton was convicted of voluntary manslaughter at trial. Newton was released after three years, when his conviction was reversed on appeal. During later years Newton would boast to sociobiologist Robert Trivers (one of the few whites who became a Party member during its waning years) that he had in fact murdered officer John Frey

On April 7, 1968, Panther Bobby Hutton was killed, and Cleaver was wounded in a shootout with the Oakland police. Two police officers were also shot. Although at the time Cleaver claimed that the police had ambushed them, Cleaver later admitted that he had led the Panther group on a deliberate ambush of the police officers, thus provoking the shoot-out.

so there is your historical context showing why a white person might fear black people

< Message edited by BitYakin -- 6/30/2013 2:06:04 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 681
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:03:22 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		It certainly seems to me that in a better world Zimmerman would have legal recourse against his persecutors; alas, this is not that better world, and I think all of those suits are unlikely to be successful.
Maybe a book deal will at least cover his legal bills and extraordinary living expenses from arrest to trial.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 682
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:09:23 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Now before we go on and on... show me a law where it says you cannot follow someone... then show me another law where you can't ask someone what are you doing here... then show me another law that says you have to run before you can defend yourself if attacked.

In the sane parts of the country, where the NRA isn't allowed to write laws, there is always a duty to retreat except when attacked in your own home.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 683
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:13:03 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

If Zimmerman approached Martin and grabbed him by the shoulder to turn him around and demanded to know what he was doing, for instance (and IMO what likely happened), then he has no recourse to self defense.


POOPYCOCK
the girl testfied that martin spoke first, when is the last time you or you saw someone speak to someone with thier back turned to the person they are speaking to

sure maybe clint eastwood makes an offhand comment to someone as he walks away at the end of a conversation, but I have never seen anyone INITIATE a conversation of any nature without facing the person they are speaking to!

this implies evidence be dammed you have made up your mind and nothing is going to change it!

So according to that account Zimmerman is guilty since he was pursuing Martin which puts the lie to his descriptions of the event. So either you discount that or the trial is over.

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 684
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:14:51 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

So. Your position is:

1. Florida's SYG law means you do not have to retreat if you can.
2. Zimmerman is claiming that he could not have retreated and is, therefore, not making a SYG defense.

QED, Florida had a generally applicable duty to retreat.

Interesting.

SYG is not applicable, according to experts, since he had followed Martin. If he could assert SYG he would have done it pre trial and if a judge had ruled in his favor there would not have ever been a trial.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 6/30/2013 2:15:12 PM >

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 685
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:18:03 PM   
BitYakin


Posts: 882
Joined: 10/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

If Zimmerman approached Martin and grabbed him by the shoulder to turn him around and demanded to know what he was doing, for instance (and IMO what likely happened), then he has no recourse to self defense.


POOPYCOCK
the girl testfied that martin spoke first, when is the last time you or you saw someone speak to someone with thier back turned to the person they are speaking to

sure maybe clint eastwood makes an offhand comment to someone as he walks away at the end of a conversation, but I have never seen anyone INITIATE a conversation of any nature without facing the person they are speaking to!

this implies evidence be dammed you have made up your mind and nothing is going to change it!

So according to that account Zimmerman is guilty since he was pursuing Martin which puts the lie to his descriptions of the event. So either you discount that or the trial is over.


not at all, as far as I know, zimmerman never denied he followed martian

you just CHOSE to substitute the word persue for follow is all

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 686
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:19:06 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

If you and another person are struggling for the gun and either you or the other person pull the trigger without full control of it you cannot claim self defense.


If you and another person are struggling for the gun and you fire it intentionally, you can claim self-defense.
Has Z claimed the gun went off accidentally?

Nope. If you are struggling over a weapon but have enough control over it to intentionally fire it then you aren't in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm so no self defense. As a matter of fact the person you shoot has the legal claim for self defense since he was in imminent danger.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 687
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:21:08 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		SYG is not applicable since it requires the existence of retreat as a possible choice of action.


_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 688
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:25:26 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

If Zimmerman approached Martin and grabbed him by the shoulder to turn him around and demanded to know what he was doing, for instance (and IMO what likely happened), then he has no recourse to self defense.


POOPYCOCK
the girl testfied that martin spoke first, when is the last time you or you saw someone speak to someone with thier back turned to the person they are speaking to

sure maybe clint eastwood makes an offhand comment to someone as he walks away at the end of a conversation, but I have never seen anyone INITIATE a conversation of any nature without facing the person they are speaking to!

this implies evidence be dammed you have made up your mind and nothing is going to change it!

So according to that account Zimmerman is guilty since he was pursuing Martin which puts the lie to his descriptions of the event. So either you discount that or the trial is over.


not at all, as far as I know, zimmerman never denied he followed martian

you just CHOSE to substitute the word persue for follow is all

His statement to police was that he lost Martin and was returning to his vehicle when Martin jumped out from behind some bushes and confronted him. So if the gf is telling the truth Zimmerman lied to the cops at the scene and the during the interview and walkthrough the next day. Juries hate liars so Zimmerman is toast if they believe her.

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 689
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:26:37 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Now before we go on and on... show me a law where it says you cannot follow someone... then show me another law where you can't ask someone what are you doing here... then show me another law that says you have to run before you can defend yourself if attacked.

In the sane parts of the country, where the NRA isn't allowed to write laws, there is always a duty to retreat except when attacked in your own home.

In sane parts of the country where laws aren't written by the Brady bunch people aren't required to get shot before they fight back.
See how easy it is?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 690
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:27:24 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

SYG is not applicable since it requires the existence of retreat as a possible choice of action.


SYG specifically removes the duty to retreat from the use of deadly force. It functionally extends the castle doctrine to any place you are legally allowed to be as long as you are not otherwise committing a crime or instigating the incident.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 691
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:31:25 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		His statement to police was that he lost Martin and was returning to his vehicle when Martin jumped out from behind some bushes and confronted him. So if the gf is telling the truth Zimmerman lied to the cops at the scene and the during the interview and walkthrough the next day. Juries hate liars so Zimmerman is toast if they believe her.


You forget that according to the GF Martin said he had lost Zimmerman, used a racial slur to describe Zimmerman and announced after losing Zimmerman that he wasn't going to run anymore.
You also forget that she admitted to multiple lies and that the police interviewed her with Martins mother and his mothers lawyer present in the mothers home. That should be enough to have her testimony thrown out.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 692
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:31:47 PM   
BitYakin


Posts: 882
Joined: 10/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

If you and another person are struggling for the gun and either you or the other person pull the trigger without full control of it you cannot claim self defense.


If you and another person are struggling for the gun and you fire it intentionally, you can claim self-defense.
Has Z claimed the gun went off accidentally?

Nope. If you are struggling over a weapon but have enough control over it to intentionally fire it then you aren't in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm so no self defense. As a matter of fact the person you shoot has the legal claim for self defense since he was in imminent danger.


I have to dissagree with that assumption, if you are struggling over a gun and still have enough control over it to fire it intentionally and you do not fire it, then you obviously leave yourself open for the possibility in the next few seconds you may lose control of the gun completely and be shot yourself. I'd say that qualifies as being in mental state where you fear for your life...

or is it your contention that when someone grabs your gun you should just HOLD ON TIGHT and HOPE they don't get it away from you and shoot you with it?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 693
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:33:54 PM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

never tried to run away


I don't know if he did or not...but.. say he didn't run what makes you think that means anything... It is not a crime to follow someone....It is not a crime to ask what are you doing... It is not a crime to stand there after asking... but it is a crime to assault someone. Evidence does not show who attacked who so for now anyway there is doubt. Who knows what evidence the prosecution has to offer... lets wait and hear.

Butch

The Florida self defense statute is clear the aggressor must exhaust all reasonable avenues of retreat before he can employ deadly force in self defense. If Zimmerman approached Martin and grabbed him by the shoulder to turn him around and demanded to know what he was doing, for instance (and IMO what likely happened), then he has no recourse to self defense.


And if the evidence and testimony presented in court makes Zimmerman's version of what happened more likely you will, of course, agree he was justified in doing what he did. Correct?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 694
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:35:57 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

If you and another person are struggling for the gun and either you or the other person pull the trigger without full control of it you cannot claim self defense.


If you and another person are struggling for the gun and you fire it intentionally, you can claim self-defense.
Has Z claimed the gun went off accidentally?

Nope. If you are struggling over a weapon but have enough control over it to intentionally fire it then you aren't in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm so no self defense. As a matter of fact the person you shoot has the legal claim for self defense since he was in imminent danger.


I have to dissagree with that assumption, if you are struggling over a gun and still have enough control over it to fire it intentionally and you do not fire it, then you obviously leave yourself open for the possibility in the next few seconds you may lose control of the gun completely and be shot yourself. I'd say that qualifies as being in mental state where you fear for your life...

or is it your contention that when someone grabs your gun you should just HOLD ON TIGHT and HOPE they don't get it away from you and shoot you with it?

That thought would be in line with if they are on top of you backing your head on what ever surface is under you, it is your obligation to assume they won't hurt you bad until your brains fall out on the ground, then you can use deadly force.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 695
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:36:18 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Now before we go on and on... show me a law where it says you cannot follow someone... then show me another law where you can't ask someone what are you doing here... then show me another law that says you have to run before you can defend yourself if attacked.

In the sane parts of the country, where the NRA isn't allowed to write laws, there is always a duty to retreat except when attacked in your own home.

In sane parts of the country where laws aren't written by the Brady bunch people aren't required to get shot before they fight back.
See how easy it is?

No one has rewritten existing law about self defense except the NRA and those laws are causing a lot of trouble.
For instance this guy
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/17/justice/florida-music-shooting
could potentially get off because he "heard" threats and thought he "saw" a gun. A duty to retreat saves lives and SYG is getting people killed for no good reason.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 696
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:40:19 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

The real beauty of this is that by charging it the way she did, and not mentioning 776, Corey sets it up so that if Zimmerman wants 776 protection, HE needs to bring it up, and then he's going to have to testify. Once he's on the stand, all the holes in his story come out. ( If you're getting your head bashed in on concrete so bad you needed to kill the kid, why is the kid's body more than a body length away from the concrete ? )



that is a kinda interesting point, and before I answer I have a couple questions of my own.

1) was tray's body found to be at an angle to the concrete or parrallel to the sidewalk
2) did the bullet that kiled him pass completly threw his body or lodge inside his body and what calliber was the bullet/gun

does anyone have this info?

reason I ask is, is it possible that they were positioned at a right angle to the sidewalk, most of thier bodies on the grass with zims head over the edge of the concrete, with tray on top zim fires upwards into trays body and the force of the shot lifts and carries him back and away a few feet?



Zimmerman's claims is after he shot him Martin remained on top of him. He claims he pushed him off and got up.

The bullet did not exit Martin's body. The weapon was 9mm short caliber pistol intended for concealed carry.

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 697
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:45:11 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

If you and another person are struggling for the gun and either you or the other person pull the trigger without full control of it you cannot claim self defense.


If you and another person are struggling for the gun and you fire it intentionally, you can claim self-defense.
Has Z claimed the gun went off accidentally?

Nope. If you are struggling over a weapon but have enough control over it to intentionally fire it then you aren't in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm so no self defense. As a matter of fact the person you shoot has the legal claim for self defense since he was in imminent danger.


I have to dissagree with that assumption, if you are struggling over a gun and still have enough control over it to fire it intentionally and you do not fire it, then you obviously leave yourself open for the possibility in the next few seconds you may lose control of the gun completely and be shot yourself. I'd say that qualifies as being in mental state where you fear for your life...

or is it your contention that when someone grabs your gun you should just HOLD ON TIGHT and HOPE they don't get it away from you and shoot you with it?

My contention is that carrying a gun in your waistband is a horrifically stupid idea. It is even stupider to get into a fist fight while doing so.

However the fact is there is that word imminent in the law for self defense. If your opponent grabs for your gun it is likely because he that feels an imminent danger and you discharging your weapon while he is attempting to defend himself legally makes you at the very least an attempted murderer. That's a big problem with people carrying guns in public it escalates otherwise minor events into much more serious ones.

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 698
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:46:13 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Now before we go on and on... show me a law where it says you cannot follow someone... then show me another law where you can't ask someone what are you doing here... then show me another law that says you have to run before you can defend yourself if attacked.

In the sane parts of the country, where the NRA isn't allowed to write laws, there is always a duty to retreat except when attacked in your own home.

In sane parts of the country where laws aren't written by the Brady bunch people aren't required to get shot before they fight back.
See how easy it is?

No one has rewritten existing law about self defense except the NRA and those laws are causing a lot of trouble.
For instance this guy
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/17/justice/florida-music-shooting
could potentially get off because he "heard" threats and thought he "saw" a gun. A duty to retreat saves lives and SYG is getting people killed for no good reason.

When handgun control writes a law depriving a person of the right to have the means to defend themselves they have rewritten a law about self defense.
When stop attempts to let the person fight back before they are seriously injured, same thing.
When they pass a law that gets a person arrested because the paperwork on a gun they brought into the state legally hasn't gone through that is rewriting self defense law.
And if they manage to repeal SYG anywhere that to will be rewriting self defense law.

The real point being that SYG does not indicate insanity anymore than your wanting to repeal it does, no matter how good it makes you feel to declare those you disagree with to be insane doesn't make it so.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 6/30/2013 2:48:22 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 699
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 2:46:46 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

You also forget that she admitted to multiple lies and that the police interviewed her with Martins mother and his mothers lawyer present in the mothers home. That should be enough to have her testimony thrown out.


I think that's a little strong. She's a juvenile (I think), and she wanted a friendly adult present? She probably has the right to a the presence of an attorney.
Her lies, her demeanor, and the very timing of here testimony are sufficient to impeach her testimony in the mind of any reasonable jury.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 700
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