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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: RacerJim

If your opponent grabs for your gun it is just as likely, if not more likely, because they intend to kill...just like Trayvon had told his 'girlfriend' he was going to do to the "creepy ass cracker" following him just a couple minutes before Trayvon grab for Zimmerman's gun.

If I am in a fight with someone and I see they have a gun you can be sure I'm going to do what ever necessary to either disarm them or gain control of that weapon. To do otherwise would be foolish in the extreme.

whoooaaaaa here, nowww haven't you been contending all along you would be obligated under law to RETREAT?

now you are saying in a real world situtation you would make a play for the gun and escalate the situation?

thank you for making my point here!

No. I'm saying if I'm in a fight, which I do always try and avoid, I've already exhausted my ability to retreat. Stop trying to twist things to fit your preconceptions.

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin
how am I twisting things here, all threw this you have maintained there is an obligation to retreat on both sides...
then you flatly stated once the fight is on you would not retreat you'd grab for the gun

isn't that the exact situtation zim and martian found themselves in?

the fight is underway, there is a grab for the gun, someone maintianed, gained, or regained control and shot

you have maintained all threw this zimerman is guilty, when we all know for SURE there was a fight already in progress before he shot

now you say once the fight is in progress there is no way to retreat

honestly dude, take your time and explain it to me maybe a lil more clearly cause now I am confused

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Have you ever tried to take a pistol out of a secure holster someone else was wearing? They are expressly designed for that to be next to impossible. The only viable way would be to knock me out and take the holster off me, put it on and figure out which kind it was and what the release mechanic is.

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If I ever carry a gun in public it will be in a secure holster and another person grabbing for it won't worry me.

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Oh my. Blackstone, really? No attempt to insert American law, only Blackstone?? The Blackstone who in your referenced work writes:

If trespassers in forests, parks, chases, or warrens, will not surrender themselves to the keepers, they may be slain

Seriously? That Blackstone?? The one who takes issue with Locke? To wit, John Locke, who wrote:

"that all manner of force without right upon a man's person, puts him in a state of war with the aggressor; and, of consequence, that, being in such a state of war, he may lawfully kill him that puts him under this unnatural restraint."

You know, the Locke upon whose work so much of our law is based (as opposed to the renowned apologist for royal power, Blackstone?

In any case, just as we have decided to change the law regarding trespassers in parks, so also have we decided to change Blackstone's vision of permissible self-defense; and in both instances for the better

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Oh my. Blackstone, really? No attempt to insert American law, only Blackstone?? The Blackstone who in your referenced work writes:

If trespassers in forests, parks, chases, or warrens, will not surrender themselves to the keepers, they may be slain

Seriously? That Blackstone?? The one who takes issue with Locke? To wit, John Locke, who wrote:

"that all manner of force without right upon a man's person, puts him in a state of war with the aggressor; and, of consequence, that, being in such a state of war, he may lawfully kill him that puts him under this unnatural restraint."

You know, the Locke upon whose work so much of our law is based (as opposed to the renowned apologist for royal power, Blackstone?

In any case, just as we have decided to change the law regarding trespassers in parks, so also have we decided to change Blackstone's vision of permissible self-defense; and in both instances for the better

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

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If I ever carry a gun in public it will be in a secure holster and another person grabbing for it won't worry me.

Well-trained in weapons retention, are you? Knowledgeable as to how bulky and cumbersome level 3 holsters are, uh? And how expensive?
Then no doubt you're also aware that you probably cannot draw your weapon if your strongside hand or arm is injured, and that they're lethally slow in far too many cases even if uninjured.

Which is why most cops won't carry them. And why i sneer at them.

Almost might as well carry an unloaded gun.

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin
lets take a hypothetical situation,

you're out with your GF, you have your gun on your person, some guy in a parking lot makes an off color comment about your GF, you confront him and things get heated, st some point one or the other takes a swing and the fight is on, the guy sees your gun, and even though you have not drawn it or even threathened to draw it he makes a grab for it.
what ya gonna do? you going to just let him have it and hope for he best? you going to try to maintian control and hold on tight and hope for the best? or like I think most would you, you going to take the shot and take your chances in court?

that is in my opinion is how things happen in the real world

If I ever carry a gun in public it will be in a secure holster and another person grabbing for it won't worry me.

You see I'm not a fucking moron and would never carry a weapon in a way that would make me less safe.

secure or not, once the fight is in progress and the gun is seen, and the other person makes a play/grab for it wouldn't you say its now your obligation to maintain control of it?

you said yourself if in a fight you saw a gun you'd make a play for it

or are you saying if you saw a gun and saw it was in a secure holster you'd then rethink your attempt to gain control of it?

put yourself in the position of being the gun carrier and tell me what you would do once the gun is seen and a grab for it is made

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin
lets take a hypothetical situation,

you're out with your GF, you have your gun on your person, some guy in a parking lot makes an off color comment about your GF, you confront him and things get heated, st some point one or the other takes a swing and the fight is on, the guy sees your gun, and even though you have not drawn it or even threathened to draw it he makes a grab for it.
what ya gonna do? you going to just let him have it and hope for he best? you going to try to maintian control and hold on tight and hope for the best? or like I think most would you, you going to take the shot and take your chances in court?

that is in my opinion is how things happen in the real world

If I ever carry a gun in public it will be in a secure holster and another person grabbing for it won't worry me.

You see I'm not a fucking moron and would never carry a weapon in a way that would make me less safe.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin
how am I twisting things here, all threw this you have maintained there is an obligation to retreat on both sides...
then you flatly stated once the fight is on you would not retreat you'd grab for the gun

isn't that the exact situtation zim and martian found themselves in?

the fight is underway, there is a grab for the gun, someone maintianed, gained, or regained control and shot

you have maintained all threw this zimerman is guilty, when we all know for SURE there was a fight already in progress before he shot

now you say once the fight is in progress there is no way to retreat

honestly dude, take your time and explain it to me maybe a lil more clearly cause now I am confused

I already said this once so now try reading this carefully and find some one to explain the words you don't understand:
If I'm involved in a fight I've already exhausted all means of retreat. I'm a pacifist and do not engage in violence if it is at all possible to avoid it.

Zimmerman on the other hand did initiate the encounter by getting out of his truck and following Martin against the rules of all neighborhood watch programs and against the explicit instructions of the police dispatcher so it is obvious he did not exhaust his ability to retreat.

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They are expressly designed for that to be next to impossible.

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin

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Have you ever tried to take a pistol out of a secure holster someone else was wearing? They are expressly designed for that to be next to impossible. The only viable way would be to knock me out and take the holster off me, put it on and figure out which kind it was and what the release mechanic is.

no I can't honeslty say I have.

so you are saying in a fight you'd have complete faith in your secure holster enough that you would ignore the play for the gun and just continue the fight as if there was no weapon in play?

I'm just asking here,

maybe you could tell me a lil more about this holster?
is this a belt holster or under your arm type holster

maybe a you could just give me a make & model so I can go look it up?

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

That's not the law anywhere

You and others insist that Zimmerman wasn't injured enough to justify self defense if I'm wrong you have been pushing a known false position.

No. What we're saying is his injuries do not support his claim that Martin was bashing his head into the sidewalk so hard he felt an imminent danger of death or great bodily harm.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

Do you not get it? People are getting killed because of that law. Combining shall issue concealed carry laws and SYG means complete buffoons who shouldn't even own a gun are going about in public armed and they are shooting people because of things like a disagreement over loud music.


Citation
must show total effects not isolated incidents

and once again there has to be something wrong with anyone who disagrees with you.

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/11/stand_your_ground_law_helps_white_defendants_a_lot_more_than_black_ones/

I did particularly like the guy who got off on SYG grounds after catching his wife having sex, going back into his bedroom, getting his gun, returning to the living room and shooting the wife's boyfriend.

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

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They are expressly designed for that to be next to impossible.

Close.
They are sufficiently well-designed to make it difficult.
The easiest way to defeat them is simply to mimic the drawing motion/grip of the holster (especially easy if the wearer is wearing his holster cross-draw, or a shoulder holster); alternatively a weakhand steal can be effected.
There's not that many of them; and yes, people (thugs and non-thugs alike) have been known to train to defeat them.
Including me. Just in case.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

That's not the law anywhere

You and others insist that Zimmerman wasn't injured enough to justify self defense if I'm wrong you have been pushing a known false position.

No. What we're saying is his injuries do not support his claim that Martin was bashing his head into the sidewalk so hard he felt an imminent danger of death or great bodily harm.

To those of use who speak English you just agreed with me.