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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Certainly. Perhaps you missed it.

In any case, just as we have decided to change the law regarding trespassers in parks, so also have we decided to change Blackstone's vision of permissible self-defense; and in both instances for the better

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I carry. Often.
And I have been known to avoid a loudmouth because I was carrying.
I have also been known to go to the car, ditch the gun, and go back.
Of course, I was a lot younger (and drunker)

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The duty to retreat works and SYG doesn't.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen
Huh? Self defense requires a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. Losing a fist fight does not rise to that level in general. Anyway isn't Zimmerman's story now that they were struggling over the gun and the bashing had stopped?

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

That's not the law anywhere

You and others insist that Zimmerman wasn't injured enough to justify self defense if I'm wrong you have been pushing a known false position.

No. What we're saying is his injuries do not support his claim that Martin was bashing his head into the sidewalk so hard he felt an imminent danger of death or great bodily harm.

To those of use who speak English you just agreed with me.

Huh? Self defense requires a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. Losing a fist fight does not rise to that level in general. Anyway isn't Zimmerman's story now that they were struggling over the gun and the bashing had stopped?

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin
lets take a hypothetical situation,

you're out with your GF, you have your gun on your person, some guy in a parking lot makes an off color comment about your GF, you confront him and things get heated, st some point one or the other takes a swing and the fight is on, the guy sees your gun, and even though you have not drawn it or even threathened to draw it he makes a grab for it.
what ya gonna do? you going to just let him have it and hope for he best? you going to try to maintian control and hold on tight and hope for the best? or like I think most would you, you going to take the shot and take your chances in court?

that is in my opinion is how things happen in the real world

If I ever carry a gun in public it will be in a secure holster and another person grabbing for it won't worry me.

You see I'm not a fucking moron and would never carry a weapon in a way that would make me less safe.

secure or not, once the fight is in progress and the gun is seen, and the other person makes a play/grab for it wouldn't you say its now your obligation to maintain control of it?

you said yourself if in a fight you saw a gun you'd make a play for it

or are you saying if you saw a gun and saw it was in a secure holster you'd then rethink your attempt to gain control of it?

put yourself in the position of being the gun carrier and tell me what you would do once the gun is seen and a grab for it is made

This is where the whole scenario and a person's reaction to it are sooo vastly different in most countries where guns aren't so common and things like concealed carry just don't exist - and for good reason too.

Right at the start of your scenario -
"you're out with your GF, you have your gun on your person, some guy in a parking lot makes an off color comment about your GF, you confront him and things get heated..."
For a start, most of us wouldn't be carrying a weapon because we don't allow it and if we did we would avoid places where we felt it necessary to carry one. That's common sense (which a lot seem to have lost somewhere).
And you end that last bit with "you confront him...".
Well, any sane sensible person isn't going to spoil their evening by getting all riled up and wanting to confront every stupid jackass prick that passes an unsavoury asswipe comment at you or your GF. Unless you are out looking for trouble to impress your 'uber-manliness' to your GF, you would ignore those pricks even if they came up to your face and started shouting. You would ignore them and get yourself and your GF out of harm's way and home where you can shag the ass off her!

It's this sort of redneck attitude that is frequently the cause of many unneccessary confrontations that are one of the many statistics of gun deaths in the US. It is also the reason why crazy laws like SYG even get off the ground.
I also suspect that it had something to do with GZ's attitude to blacks walking the streets and why he chose to follow Martin - and we all know the outcome of that episode!

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ORIGINAL: ObssessiveSub

I'm curious as to the level of legal training that has gone into the conversation....

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

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They are expressly designed for that to be next to impossible.

Close.
They are sufficiently well-designed to make it difficult.
The easiest way to defeat them is simply to mimic the drawing motion/grip of the holster (especially easy if the wearer is wearing his holster cross-draw, or a shoulder holster); alternatively a weakhand steal can be effected.
There's not that many of them; and yes, people (thugs and non-thugs alike) have been known to train to defeat them.
Including me. Just in case.

You have to know which trick you are dealing with and have to be able to mimic that action as if you were the wearer. I first encountered one when my brother, a police officer showed one to me, From in front trying to get the weapon was impossible unless he simply stood still and let me. From behind it was slightly easier as it was closer to the natural drawing motion but you still need to know precisely what the trick is to get it to release.

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin
soo your response is, to nit pic how the fight starts rather than deal with the meat of the issue which is once the fight starts, and someone goes for your gun, what do you do?

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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin
soo your response is, to nit pic how the fight starts rather than deal with the meat of the issue which is once the fight starts, and someone goes for your gun, what do you do?

The point I was making is that most sensible people wouldn't start the fight in the first place!!
The whole point is that the scenario you are painting just wouldn't happen. Period.
Only an asshat looking for trouble would even want to start a fight over some stupid prick's inane words.

What I'm saying is... there's no 'meat' in your sandwich to debate! 

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

If I may, first there are no other witnesses that saw Trayvon go for Zimmerman's gun, lots of witnesses saw the scuffle....

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

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They are expressly designed for that to be next to impossible.

Close.
They are sufficiently well-designed to make it difficult.
The easiest way to defeat them is simply to mimic the drawing motion/grip of the holster (especially easy if the wearer is wearing his holster cross-draw, or a shoulder holster); alternatively a weakhand steal can be effected.
There's not that many of them; and yes, people (thugs and non-thugs alike) have been known to train to defeat them.
Including me. Just in case.

You have to know which trick you are dealing with and have to be able to mimic that action as if you were the wearer. I first encountered one when my brother, a police officer showed one to me, From in front trying to get the weapon was impossible unless he simply stood still and let me. From behind it was slightly easier as it was closer to the natural drawing motion but you still need to know precisely what the trick is to get it to release.

this may seem like I am taking a long time to respond to this but I just went to the store, where there happen to be to police officers in the parking lot so I aproched them and told them what you said about almost impossible to remove the gun, and they both almost split thier sides laughing

once they calmed down I asked soo regardless of the type of holster if someone goes for your gun what do you do? they both said protect the gun at all costs!
they also reafirmed what someone here said about them being so complexe it almost renders them useless when the time comes you need your gun

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Many people know the tricks.
From the front, if the man is carrying on his strong hip, the trick is to use the opposite hand (that is, e.g. if he is right-handed and carrying on his right hip, use your left hand), invert your hand, and use your index finger for his thumb, and vice versa.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: BitYakin

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

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They are expressly designed for that to be next to impossible.

Close.
They are sufficiently well-designed to make it difficult.
The easiest way to defeat them is simply to mimic the drawing motion/grip of the holster (especially easy if the wearer is wearing his holster cross-draw, or a shoulder holster); alternatively a weakhand steal can be effected.
There's not that many of them; and yes, people (thugs and non-thugs alike) have been known to train to defeat them.
Including me. Just in case.

You have to know which trick you are dealing with and have to be able to mimic that action as if you were the wearer. I first encountered one when my brother, a police officer showed one to me, From in front trying to get the weapon was impossible unless he simply stood still and let me. From behind it was slightly easier as it was closer to the natural drawing motion but you still need to know precisely what the trick is to get it to release.

this may seem like I am taking a long time to respond to this but I just went to the store, where there happen to be to police officers in the parking lot so I aproched them and told them what you said about almost impossible to remove the gun, and they both almost split thier sides laughing

once they calmed down I asked soo regardless of the type of holster if someone goes for your gun what do you do? they both said protect the gun at all costs!
they also reafirmed what someone here said about them being so complexe it almost renders them useless when the time comes you need your gun

Nonsense. If you do some research you will find that incidents of people having a pistol taken from a secure holster are so rare as to be non existent. A lot of police dislike them based on what amounts to fairy tales.

Did they happen to mention whether St. Louis PD requires them?

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A lot of police dislike them based on what amounts to fairy tales.