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RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 6:03:14 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

fine fine, no matter what anyone says you are right, no one else including people who deal with this on a daily basis know anything, we are all just dumb redneck republicans and should shut up!

as for whether STL PD requires them I'd say NO cause the ones the officers I spoke to one has a simple snap and the other had a velcro closure, so if they are required by STL PD then they were clearly in violation.

I am curious though as to why you'd want to know it they are required?

are you possibly implying they resent being told they are required to have them and thats why they badmouthed them?

Do you really think the holsters would get made and be required by many major police departments and other law enforcement agencies if they didn't work?

I wanted to know if they were required because if they weren't why did you think the cops had any experience with them?

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 781
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 6:07:36 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

1. You are making an excellent point against wearing one in the first place. Had Zimmerman been wearing one Trayvon could have beaten him senseless; and, having seen the gun, he could then have used it to kill the owner.

2. The seemingly complex moves I described would have had to be performed by Martin, yet you post about how difficult those moves would have been for Zimmerman to perform.

Your post is a mirror image of understanding.

Huh?

1) A poorly trained person shouldn't be carrying at all and the evidence still seems to show Zimmerman had no business carrying at all.

2)?

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 782
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 6:11:26 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

A lot of police dislike them based on what amounts to fairy tales.


So we are to disregard the beliefs of uniformed officers regarding the suitability of their own gear.
And, we are to treat a mild statement of fact made by a police dispatcher far removed from the scene of an actual, ongoing incident, as a command imbued with the wisdom of the ages and the authority of God himself.

What insensible hypocritical drivel we are offered.

These same cops hated wearing bullet resistant vests and had all sorts of nonsense stories about how unsafe they were (the only really true complaint was they are awfully hot on a hot day). So yes the fairy tales told be cops who don't like using a secure holster should be discounted, specially in the case of those like the ones Bityakin encountered, who have no or little experience with them. You a fire arms instructor, do you care about the opinion of people who have never spent any time on a range?

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 783
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 6:16:28 PM   
BitYakin


Posts: 882
Joined: 10/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

fine fine, no matter what anyone says you are right, no one else including people who deal with this on a daily basis know anything, we are all just dumb redneck republicans and should shut up!

as for whether STL PD requires them I'd say NO cause the ones the officers I spoke to one has a simple snap and the other had a velcro closure, so if they are required by STL PD then they were clearly in violation.

I am curious though as to why you'd want to know it they are required?

are you possibly implying they resent being told they are required to have them and thats why they badmouthed them?

Do you really think the holsters would get made and be required by many major police departments and other law enforcement agencies if they didn't work?

I wanted to know if they were required because if they weren't why did you think the cops had any experience with them?



I think alot of things get made and sold that prey on the fears of uninformed people alll the time...

ever heard of a company called RONCO? look em up they make millions a year selling absolute JUNK!

and why I would think they would have accurate intormation on them? because they wear holsters all day every day and probably keep up to date on new equipment information. I also think they would be more likely to be up to date on recent studies and statistics regarding such equipment

as a plumber I am always interested in any new or inovative tools that make my work easier and safer.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 784
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 6:20:45 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
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quote:

A poorly trained person shouldn't be carrying at all


I've encountered various opinions on this; I'm very much on the egalitarian side.
But, for the sake of conversation: What is "proper training"? What does it consist of?

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 785
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 6:22:19 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

You a fire arms instructor, do you care about the opinion of people who have never spent any time on a range?


I have many times talked to such people here <ahem>

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 786
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 6:24:54 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Well to be blunt most cops are not experts on firearms use or safety. most practice with their weapons only enough to stay qualified.

The real experts think very highly of secure holsters.
http://www.tactical-life.com/tactical-weapons/life-saving-security-holsters/
http://www.gunblast.com/WBell_PoliceHolsterHist.htm
http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/info/retention/Levels%20of%20Retention%20Details.pdf

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 787
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 6:28:32 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

A poorly trained person shouldn't be carrying at all


I've encountered various opinions on this; I'm very much on the egalitarian side.
But, for the sake of conversation: What is "proper training"? What does it consist of?

For concealed carry it should be extensive including tactical training. I'd want anyone carrying in public to have at least a basic understanding of the realities of firing a weapon in a chaotic situation with definite friendlies in the area.

I'd also like to see something like what is done in drivers ed, let them see what the actual results of gunshots are.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 788
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 6:35:51 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		fine fine, no matter what anyone says you are right, no one else including people who deal with this on a daily basis know anything, we are all just dumb redneck republicans and should shut up!


Finally you get it


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 789
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 6:36:52 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		I am not surprised that people who make retention holsters, or sell them advertising space, think highly of them.
I'm sure somewhere there are stories of cops killed while trying to draw their firearm from a retention holster that was just too slow, or that malfunctioned, but what's the point?
You are going to sign on to anything that makes a gun more difficult to use, from trigger locks to gun safes to retention holsters to unloaded chambers to whatever.
And I am not.
Have you posted anything describing your idea of proper training to carry a firearm?

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 790
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 6:42:08 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Well to be blunt most cops are not experts on firearms use or safety. most practice with their weapons only enough to stay qualified.

The real experts think very highly of secure holsters.
http://www.tactical-life.com/tactical-weapons/life-saving-security-holsters/
http://www.gunblast.com/WBell_PoliceHolsterHist.htm
http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/info/retention/Levels%20of%20Retention%20Details.pdf

And you are and practice constantly.
Clearly you feel that a ccw holder should be held to a higher standard than cops.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 791
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 6:45:44 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

it should be extensive including tactical training.


Can you offer any sort of specifics?
It's interesting, really, that I always touched on this even though it was hardly mentioned in the NRA textbook from which I was supposed to teach.
I would never tell someone that they have to commit suicide- that is, that they cannot shoot in a crowded situation even though they are taking fire. But I did talk about the practical and moral considerations of such, and offered a possible tactical solution. I also brought it back to advice I had offered regarding proper ammo and weapons choices (Zimmerman, by the way, was carrying a round considered very safe for urban carry).

< Message edited by truckinslave -- 6/30/2013 6:47:05 PM >

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 792
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 6/30/2013 11:48:44 PM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline 		Short question: can sombody enlighten me as to how long the trial is expected to last?

_____________________________

"Whenever people are laughing, they are generally not killing one another"
Alan Alda


(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 793
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 12:09:28 AM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

It's gonna be an acquittal.

No proof that Martin wasn't pounding Zimmerman, or that Martin didn't throw the first punch.

Zimmerman's story has been consistent throughout. Unless the prosecution can punch holes in it, he won't be convicted.

Based on Martin's fighting training, testimony, and the fact that he was in a lot better shape, I assume that he was on top of Zimmerman when Zimmerman pulled the gun and fired.



There certainly is the possibility of an acquittal.

But if the logic you propose should be grounds for it, then it's good to know that I could just walk up to anybody and put a hole in him as long as there is -no proof- that the guy I shot wasn't pounding on me. BTW, even for this fiasco of 'justification', it would still need to be proven by the defense that Martin threw the first punch, not that the prosecutors need to prove that he didn't.

I think it's safe to say in such event that nothing in my testimony would likely go towards providing any proof that he wasn't pounding on me.

This proposed standpoint goes even 100 times beyond SYG, I hope you realize.






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/1/2013 12:48:01 AM >

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 794
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 12:20:02 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

You also forget that she admitted to multiple lies and that the police interviewed her with Martins mother and his mothers lawyer present in the mothers home. That should be enough to have her testimony thrown out.


I think that's a little strong. She's a juvenile (I think), and she wanted a friendly adult present? She probably has the right to a the presence of an attorney.
Her lies, her demeanor, and the very timing of here testimony are sufficient to impeach her testimony in the mind of any reasonable jury.


She is 19.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 795
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 12:27:43 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

That's not the law anywhere

You and others insist that Zimmerman wasn't injured enough to justify self defense if I'm wrong you have been pushing a known false position.

No. What we're saying is his injuries do not support his claim that Martin was bashing his head into the sidewalk so hard he felt an imminent danger of death or great bodily harm.


Actually a medical expert just testified under oath on Friday that the lacerations and many bumps on his head was consistent with it being smacked on concrete and that what George did to stop the attack could have saved his life.

And she was a state witness too.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 796
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 12:38:41 AM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
There are witness statements of GZ waiting by his truck for four minutes? and witness testimony of Martin confronting Zimmerman at his truck at end of those four minutes? Are there witnesses that saw Martin drag Zimmerman all that distance from Zimmerman's truck to the place where the shooting occurred? Witness testimony that said Martin chased Zimmerman from his truck, who saw this chase through all those turns, to the place where the shooting occurred?

Best insurance against insult is to quit being silly when discussing a serious subject.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/1/2013 1:37:47 AM >

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 797
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 1:59:25 AM   
Extravagasm


Posts: 230
Joined: 9/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

DomKen post 463: in not insane states those trivial injuries from a fist fight would not be enough to justify a claim of reasonable fear of imminent death or grievous bodily harm which is the standard for lethal self defense.

When a strong experienced fighter straddles you and is going both ways with fists, the injuries you can sustain will NOT BE TRIVIAL. They will be GRIEVOUS BODILY HARM. The ground, pavement etc are opportunistic weapons of the upper aggressor. Beyond the surface damage, will be brain injury, concussion, eyesight, retinal detachment, to name some. GZ would have sustained these if it had not ended.
Worse still, the lower recipient can loose consciousness. Then the upper aggressor could do anything, procure a rock, knife, key, grab the neck and beat the recipient's head onto the surface material.
Its irresponsible for your post 463 to talk otherwise. GZ did not have to first yell 'get off' multiple times. Though he did.
The Florida statute that you speak derisively about in this post 463, is the same you cited to me, glowingly several pages back, with a weaker understanding of. Either way, both then and here, you're pretending to ignore the standard of grievous bodily harm.

_____________________________

BDSM operates on submission. Not on love, fairness, or convention.

The way to a Dom . . is to follow his karma, wallow in his grime, Swim in his heart.©

Yeah, fantasy is not reality. That's how it gives direction to the truly gifted.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 798
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 2:11:02 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		What makes you think T was stronger or more experienced?

I guess I didnt make my post clear enough, Extravagasm.

Zimmerman was taking MMA clases in 2011, according to his physicians testimony today. So, again, how is it determined that Z was stronger or more experienced than T?

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 7/1/2013 2:50:29 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Extravagasm)
Profile   Post #: 799
RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE - 7/1/2013 2:23:54 AM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
Actually a medical expert just testified under oath on Friday that the lacerations and many bumps on his head was consistent with it being smacked on concrete and that what George did to stop the attack could have saved his life.


Staying in his truck and letting professionals do their job could have saved his life too.

No medical expert testimony needed to figure that one out, for a sane person.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/1/2013 2:24:45 AM >

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 800
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