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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 9:22:58 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		Surely there is security camera footage from the convenience store.

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 9:24:33 AM   
tazzygirl


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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 11:36:50 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

by what lawful authority (the fact they have guns and will shoot you notwithstanding) does the state have to force anyone to identify themselves.

show us the contract.

the other day i was watching some youtube vids of TSA road checkpoint stops (these are not the ones at the border, they can be a hundred miles from the border or in various states).. the vids showed the intimidation tactics used by TSA to get people to "show their papers".. one even illegally reached inside & grabbed the camera.. it was really disgusting to watch TSA intimidating people with no probable cause.. even when the driver asked TSA what probable cause they had, TSA would continue to attempt to intimidate them.. I can see that working on scaring all but the strongest people.. and of course that is what TSA counts on.. really sad..

My view on the college students is that the "cops" had no probable cause to stop them at all and everything stemming from the attempt to illegally stop them is the "cops'" fault..

as far as vehicle education goes, I know someone that didnt know you need to check your oil and he (yes, he) ran the engine dry..



and therein is the underlying problem of institutionalized statism!

They claim rights for themselves that are above their creator, (presumably us, the common people), in the name of protecting the sovereignty and continued existence of the state as well as its sovereignty (above us all status).

That was acceptable to people 500 years ago and meant to apply to world nations not to be used against the people within who supposedly were its creators.

No contract exists from anyone of us to be subject to the state and in most cases except for immigrants citizenship is a presumption made by the state unless you fight it upon which if you do you are an insurrectionist traitor and will be thrown in jail. Their circular reasoning, and reson is what most court decisions are being upon now days, is unending.

The only time, if you look back in history they had a legitimate authority to force you to identify yourself is if you caused someone injury or damages.

Today you are threatened to identify yourself and the second you do if you are in their computer you will be dragged out of your car and subject to anything they want to do with you, because they will invariably get off in our extortionist courts who are the true bought and paid for rulers of this country.

WHat these agents do perfectly fit the definition of an act of terrorism, but good luck in getting any court to agree with that since its their duty to protect the sovereignty and there is a whole prison and judicial industry that depends upon that money making machine second only to the crooked banking industry.


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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 5:55:32 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
the other day i was watching some youtube vids of TSA road checkpoint stops (these are not the ones at the border, they can be a hundred miles from the border or in various states).. the vids showed the intimidation tactics used by TSA to get people to "show their papers".. one even illegally reached inside & grabbed the camera.. it was really disgusting to watch TSA intimidating people with no probable cause.. even when the driver asked TSA what probable cause they had, TSA would continue to attempt to intimidate them.. I can see that working on scaring all but the strongest people.. and of course that is what TSA counts on.. really sad..


Those "intimidation tactics" are taught, It's not just random. Having seen what "to serve and protect" actually looks like in other countries, it is very different.

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 10:04:55 PM   
eulero83


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Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline 		this are the original sources:

for the girl's story

for ABC version

now on one side there is a full of details report that's been confirmed after two months investigation by prosecutor, and on the other side ABC claiming they did what they where supposed to do and the girl freaked out and tried to kill them for no reason. By the way it's not a "your word against my word" situation as a 911 operator and a police department officer where involved so there are their testimonies to confrontate part of the story.

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 10:13:19 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
That's what 20 yr. old college girls were trying to make out in the dark, though the badges are quite unrealistically oversized in the above.


The other part of the equation being that the girls hadn't done anything wrong and as such probably had a reasonable expectation that they wouldn't be harassed and threatened by real cops.



It is not out of the ordinary that people "who hadn't done anything wrong" might be questioned by the police. Nothing wrong with that, on its own. In the first stages of investigation they have to question everybody, and assume that anybody could have committed the crime in question. And most people would (and do) feel threatened just in being questioned, even if not having done anything wrong.

But the trouble with these "sting" operations is that presumption of guilt is essentially built in from the start. The LEOs (not the police themselves) have done a wonderful job in stepping around the issue of probable cause by just committing the crime themselves and then arresting the counterparty. The whole purpose is to induce crime, and then reap the rewards of their (the LEOs') intentional contribution to the increase in prison population, in next year's budget, so as to expand the effort further. And now everybody has lost sight of the original purpose of serving society rather than their own department and its budget.

I've had my residence broken into six times, not in any instance have the police found the perpetrator(s). All they are capable of is creating their own crime so as to not have to actually work at finding the guilty opposite in that endeavor. Makes the stats look good and increases the budget for next year.

I think it's safe to say that the VA ABC is wildly over-budgeted, even before this incident.

And I can guarantee it's not because of overpaying their agents.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/4/2013 10:27:52 PM >

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 10:33:33 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		http://www.dailyprogress.com/news/local/outcry-over-abc-bust-of-uva-student-grows/article_4eecc878-e2b7-11e2-a2b2-001a4bcf6878.html

ABC earlier this year found no wrongdoing in the agents' encounter with three sorority women who panicked at the sight of a half-dozen undercover officers in plainclothes. One of the agents unholstered his weapon during the April 11 incident and held it at the "ready" position, but did not point it at anyone, according to ABC.

..........

Elizabeth Daly said she and her friends were "terrified" when a man and woman in street clothes began knocking on her car windows in the darkened Harris Teeter parking lot. Their badges were unidentifiable, she said in a written statement after her court date Thursday.

When Daly slipped her keys into the ignition to crack the windows, a male agent yanked at the door handle, banged on the window and yelled at the women to exit the vehicle, said Daly's front-seat passenger, who asked not to be identified.

So, which was it? Did they point the gun at her or not? Did they break the windows or knock on them? Did all rush her or only one female approach her? Did she slide her keys into the ignition or did she start her vehicle?

I keep saying the whole story isnt known yet.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 7/4/2013 10:43:22 PM >

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If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 11:05:19 PM   
Edwynn


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What is known of the story is disturbing enough; that an entire team of alcohol control agents were insufficiently trained such as to be able to distinguish the difference between a 12 pack of water from a 12 pack of beer.

It is ridiculous to even get into what errors or mistakes a lay person might have made when having to deal with over the top heavy-handedness by supposedly "trained professionals," in frightened response thereto, when it is the fact that these 'professionals' themselves made a far worse mistake that instigated the whole affair.

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 11:10:55 PM   
Edwynn


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Status: offline 		These are Alcoholic Beverage Control agents.

The girls carried water out of the store, not beer, and otherwise had no other alcohol in their vehicle.

Had the agents been trained properly, there would be no incident here.


What more is there to know?


< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/4/2013 11:11:38 PM >

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 11:11:11 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

What is known of the story is disturbing enough; that an entire team of alcohol control agents were insufficiently trained such as to be able to distinguish the difference between a 12 pack of water from a 12 pack of beer.


I have also pointed out how they knew a 20 year old woman wasnt 21.

That should give some people pause... and a realization that we dont know everything yet.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 11:18:57 PM   
Edwynn


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J. Edgar Hoover could only have dreamt of this;

"If you got water, I can bash your daddy's SUV's windows in, because I can tell that you're only 20 yrs, old, even though I haven't any clue as to what you're carrying."

Nice planet you live on.

Stay there.

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 11:26:43 PM   
Edwynn


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How did they 'know' that the young lady was 20 yrs. old? That would be far more difficult information to obtain than the much more obvious direct line-of-site information of what the young lady was actually carrying to her vehicle.

This as would be the case for those properly trained in their field, that is.

We're not talking about your or my or the typical person's ability to discern a 12 pack of water from a 12 pack of beer, we're talking about agencies that we spend a lot of tax money on to actually earn their living by making such distinction . That's their job. Not to terrorize college kids by their ineptitude.


< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/4/2013 11:37:15 PM >

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 11:32:39 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		And her story has changed more than once, hasnt it.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 11:38:19 PM   
Edwynn


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Did her story, in any variation, ever say that she bought beer?

If no beer or other alcohol involved, then our tax dollars were grossly misspent on sending a team of agents to assault college kids for buying water.

Or are you saying that because her account was not word-for-word consistent to the letter throughout, then that proves that she actually was carrying beer?

Not even the ABC agents are stupid enough to go that route.


< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/4/2013 11:47:25 PM >

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 11:46:44 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		That "team of agents" were already there, working. They were not there specifically for her.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 11:48:13 PM   
Edwynn


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Who said that?

They were waiting for anyone carrying water, as it turned out.

She just happened to be the first one they saw committing this crime.

Glad we agree on something.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/4/2013 11:51:59 PM >

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/4/2013 11:57:44 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		The Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control released the following statement:

"Agents were working in the area, concentrating on underage possession enforcement. An agent observed what appeared to be an underage person in possession of what appeared to be a case of beer, and approached her to investigate. The agent identified herself as a police officer and was displaying her badge. Other agents did not join the incident until the subject refused to cooperate. Rather than comply with the officers' requests, the subject drove off, striking two officers. She was not arrested for possessing bottled water, but for running from police and striking two of them with a vehicle.

http://www.newsplex.com/home/headlines/Assault-Charges-Dropped-in-Confusing-Alcohol-Related-Sting-213560971.html

Daly had bought a carton of water, cookie dough and ice cream at a Charlottesville store on April 11. ABC spokeswoman Kathleen Shaw says a plainclothes agent conducting a sting suspected Daly had a case of beer and identified herself to Daly.

http://hamptonroads.com/2013/06/abc-arrest-watertoting-uva-student-under-review

And this....

Anne Downey, one of her roommates, said during the call: "So we were surrounded by like six people and they started flashing...well they were yelling at us and then we didn't know if they were real police officers or not because they weren't in uniform and then they started holding up badges but we didn't look at the badges because we were freaking out and started driving away. What should we do?

http://www.nbc29.com/story/22760955/911-call-released-from-abcs-clash-with-student

So now they didnt even look at badges?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/5/2013 12:10:15 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Or are you saying that because her account was not word-for-word consistent to the letter throughout, then that proves that she actually was carrying beer?


No, I am saying they are stupid... and tried to run over 2 cops because they were stupid.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/5/2013 12:17:23 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control released the following statement:

"Agents were working in the area, concentrating on underage possession enforcement. An agent observed what appeared to be an underage person in possession of what appeared to be a case of beer, and approached her to investigate.

http://www.newsplex.com/home/headlines/Assault-Charges-Dropped-in-Confusing-Alcohol-Related-Sting-213560971.html

Daly had bought a carton of water, cookie dough and ice cream at a Charlottesville store on April 11. ABC spokeswoman Kathleen Shaw says a plainclothes agent conducting a sting suspected Daly had a case of beer and identified herself to Daly.


So now they didnt even look at badges?



The point is not whether the untrained young woman looked at the badges sufficiently enough. The point, as so well demonstrated above, is that trained LE professionals did not look sufficiently enough at the water and ice cream and cookie dough.

Improper training and gross ineptitude from these ABC agents does not automatically shove responsibility of the inevitable disastrous outcome on the victim.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/5/2013 12:24:41 AM >

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RE: psycho agents terrify college students - 7/5/2013 12:22:54 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

he point is not whether the untrained young woman looked at the badges sufficiently enough. The point, as so well demonstrated above, is that trained professionals did not look sufficiently at the water and ice cream and cookie dough.

Improper training and gross ineptitude from these ABC agents does not automatically shove responsibility of the inevitable disastrous outcome on the victim.


And we know where the case of water was located when the agent approached her? Was it in the car already? Did they simply see her put a case of something in the car and approach to ask about it?

The store is known to be frequented by college students... where else would you set up an underage sting at? Harris Teeter has been fined before for selling to underage people.

We simply do not know.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 140
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