RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness.

RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (Full Version)

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hrxxx -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/2/2013 11:39:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ quote: ORIGINAL: hrxxx quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: hrxxx I tell to her that she shall move, her toes and finger so that blood can flow freely. (Common sens) If you where to try your "common sense" with a girl with circulatory issues -like me- you'd be rushing her to the hospital afterwards. If you genuinely think that telling a girl to wiggle her fingers in bondage that's cutting off her circulation would be sufficient, you're delusional. Actually. it works alright, but as I said I use no rope, but straps and chains, and the blood can only stop where the belts are tightening! I have not had a girl with poor circulation yet, so honest, why think of things that have never existed in my play with Bondage. So, in your logic, because it has never happened in the past, that means it will never occur in the future? [sm=wtf.gif] Read the instruction manual for your unit's, as the starting point, it is the most sensible to do! There may be things that are important to your health and the safe use! When you put the pads on, they shall sit with around 2-5 centimeters apart, and they work best if her pussy is new shaved if her pussy is not new shaved, then comes pads easy to sit solve and the feeling is being, more as a stinging sensation and not as vibrating sensation as it is supposed to. No my logic tells me! That I should not think of a girl has, Bronchitis, asthma, poor blood circulation, epilepsy, allergies, poor heart, liver problems, diabetes, brain injury. Before I meet one! When I meet a girl, I'm so lucky arranged that I have a mouth and two ears, a mouth can be used for more than to eat with! And ear can be used for more than putting your fingers in! So when two people meet, and the one opens his mouth, then there comes sound out of his mouth, it is called speech language! In Denmark we call it communication, so when I meet new girls, we communicate together. So if a girl communicate to me that she has asthma, then I perceive this communication and organize our BDSM play after that! So tell me why I should start thinking about girls with poor blood circulation when I have NEVER met a girl with poor circulation! And if I meet a girl with poor circulation, then I adjusts our BDSM play for it! It's really simple, it's not rocket science we're talking about here!

hrxxx -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/2/2013 11:49:53 PM)
My experience with BDSM is that it's about to get as close to fantasy as possible. And I have never met a girl, who had a fantasy of being locked in a cage with her own key. I do not think you're crazy because you live out your fantasies

hrxxx -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/3/2013 12:03:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity quote: ORIGINAL: hrxxx Actually. it works alright, but as I said I use no rope, but straps and chains, and the blood can only stop where the belts are tightening! I have not had a girl with poor circulation yet, so honest, why think of things that have never existed in my play with Bondage. Ok, mods...Im keeping the TOS in mind about it being about the post, not the poster [:)] Why think of things that haven't existed? Seriously??? Because this stuff DOES exist. Ishtar gave you a prime example with her poor circulation. Just because you haven't experienced it in your many many many years of über domliness does NOT mean you won't. And woe be the poor woman who has to suffer because of this näivete on your part. It's honestly why you remind me of an ostrich...burying your head in the sand and being completely oblivious to what's going on around you. You know what I have fine wide soft leather cuffs, like so many others. And NO I shall not go around and calculate what may be going to happen in my life, but calculate what is actually happening in my life.

ARIES83 -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/3/2013 2:28:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: ARIES83 Ishtar, Do you think having will or not/ having choices or not, having power or being powerless are the biggest factors in what you do? Absolutely. Taking play to that level, it's all about not having choices and being genuinely powerless. That's why I, unlike hrxxx apparently, also don't consider it essential that restraints are inescapable for all play. For me, for most play it's prudent to have safety measures in place. But there is a certain level of play that focusses directly on reenforcing the perception of powerlessness that would be absolutely ruined if I could get out. Not in the least only because I sometimes take pain play to a level where, if I could get out easily and fast, I'd end up punching, kicking, and attaching the Top with whatever was in my reach out of instinctual self-defense. This is a question for anyone not just Ishtar, So what is your opinion on leaving someone who is restrained unattended? and/or without a way of setting themselves free? For those of us who do it, are we negligent? To be powerless to effect your situation and to be utterly dependant on another to survive is an interesting proposition, and yet as has been illustrated a bit with the "being a passenger with someone else driving" analogy, it happens quite often. Discussing what would happen in the event of emergency while bound or if your keeper were unable to return would obviously be a very good idea, but having the ability to actually do anything in the event of those situations being completely out of your hands... I'm quite sure a lot of people wouldn't be able to give that kind of trust or let go of that control, especially within the realm of "BDSM play", I don't remember all the acronyms... but things like SS&C would seem to have come about out of a necessity that I can totally understand... I wouldn't trust most people with my car let alone my safety and there are a lot of fruitcakes and incompetent people out there, who is which is anyones guess... With non-consensual consent type of scenarios, is most of the stuff that goes along with that automatically 'unsafe & insane'...?

ARIES83 -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/3/2013 2:59:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: petitespot If someone was to drop dead while I was bound someone would eventually smell the rotting flesh and find us. I like your carefree attitude! But between having beaucoup contingency plans and failsafes... Or letting you and your partners rotting flesh alert people to your prediciment... There must be a happy middle ground somewhere.

hrxxx -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/3/2013 3:03:19 AM)
For me it's about looking at a girl in bondage, so if I take the time to gather all chains really, and it starts to look good, as a work of art. Then I would have it strange to go from her, I enjoy looking at her as a piece of art. So no I will not leave her. With my cage it is, it's something else that I can find to go and do something else while she sits in the cage. My cage is built, so no need to lock to keep it closed. But I would say if a girl is so afraid of being trapped in a cage that she needs key. So she is not ready to get into the cage, and I would. do something else with her, for me, BDSM to stretch the limits without exceeding them. And you can have much fun BDSM just with your hands alone.

ARIES83 -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/3/2013 6:53:35 AM)
ResidentSadist, Would you care to talk about your cage in a bit more detail, like any safety considerations you went through to end up with that set up, and a bit of the thinking behind the various things in the cage... especially the teddy bears.

LadyPact -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/3/2013 7:47:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ARIES83 So what is your opinion on leaving someone who is restrained unattended? and/or without a way of setting themselves free? For those of us who do it, are we negligent? Good Heavens, yes! We should never think of leaving in the event of needing to go to the bathroom, left something in another room, or in case the doorbell rings. [/sarcasm]

SeekingTrinity -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/3/2013 9:07:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ARIES83 This is a question for anyone not just Ishtar, So what is your opinion on leaving someone who is restrained unattended? and/or without a way of setting themselves free? For those of us who do it, are we negligent? For me, I think there is a big difference between restraining someone and heading into the next room versus restraining them and then heading to the next town over. In either case, they are technically unattended. But Im right there to respond if Im needed at all. Plus I am always walking quietly into the room to check. So my guy knows Im there, but the "not being there" part lends itself to the mind trip that is powerlessness over the situation. I happen to switch with him and he does the same thing. Do I feel Im being negligent of him? No. He'd vote with his feet and since he keeps coming back, Im certain he doesnt think Im being negligent either. Do I feel he is being negligent? No, I know he'd never let anything bad happen intentionally.

Dyfrynt -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/3/2013 10:11:45 AM)
How much risk a couple is comfortable with? Say you cage your slave and leave for the day knowing they cannot get out. What are the chances that anything terrible is going to happen? Statistically what are the chances that the house will burn down on the day this activity is planned? What are the chances that the one leaving the house will not return for whatever reason? For someone who's kink is genuine (though hopefully, reasonable) risk, they may consider the chances of a bad outcome small enough to be worth having the experience. That concept would not work for me. I do not have a risk kink. Even though I understand the statistical chance for something going wrong is small I cannot discount the possibility. For me personally, that is a risk I am not prepared to take. Still, for the most part, I suspect most of us are willing to take a certain amount of (what is reasonable to us) risk. For many, it is integral to the lifestyle we choose to live. And, of course, what is reasonable will vary from person to person. To Aries, yes there is a reasonable middle ground. The reasonable middle ground is what you decide it is. The risk/reward equation is balanced by you.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/3/2013 11:10:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ARIES83 This is a question for anyone not just Ishtar, So what is your opinion on leaving someone who is restrained unattended? and/or without a way of setting themselves free? For those of us who do it, are we negligent? I don't have a problem with a restraint person who either can or cannot release themselves being left alone, even so far as the Top leaving the house for a prolonged period of time, as long if: - It servers a purpose and is not being done just one a whim, without forethought. This also means that being unable to release oneself needs to serve addition purpose, that cannot be gained from leaving a 'just in case' escape option, like a key sealed inside a close envelope. - Both parties are aware of the potential risks. This among other things means that the type of restraint needs to be well thought out, and usually have been practiced before hand for longer than the duration the Top is planning to step out... shoving a girl in a cramped cage and stepping out not knowing she'll get massive cramps in half an hour is idiotic... not kinky in my book. - Both parties are getting something positive out of the experience. For me, personally, this type of thing is not something I want to risk on a serious non-funishment punishment. Everybody is talking about the risks of what happens if the Top drops death, but that risk is reversed just as much. What if the sub has a heart attack in bondage while you step out of the room? I can tell you that there will be a jury involved at the very least. This kind of play I consider high risk enough that it's not the type of play in which I find that the risk/reward balance pays off to be worth risking it for activities that aren't mutually gratifying. (Though in my case that means that most of the stuff I'd like to experiment with, I can't find a Top for for whom the risk is worth it [:D]). Those are the criteria I use, I'm not trying to state they are the only criteria one should use (obviously) but within those criteria I would say it's impossible to be negligent by the mere act of stepping away. Negligence means that you failed to take proper care of something, if you're both aware of the risks, and both deem the risks worth it, and you both agree that using a 'safer' method would ruin the scenario, then you DID take proper care... even if something unfortunately goes wrong. Edited to add BTW, for me personally, I'm far less worried about something happening to the Top and me being unable to get out and dying of dehydration, then I am of something to me happening and the Top going to jail for the rest of their lives. That's because I'm somewhat of a serious escape artist. The last time I was chained to the concrete floor, I managed to remove the screws that bolted in the anchor, without the use of proper tools. Our playspace has a window in it, that I would simple break if need be, and use the decent set of longs on me to alert the neighbors something is wrong. With the smaller cage RS has, I would flip out the coasters and drag myself outside cage and all. With his larger cage (if it didn't have safety in it) I'd roll it vertically to somewhere I would be able to alert somebody. I have a collapsable thumb, and even if a cuff/chain/rope is tight enough that I can't easily get out of it, I know for sure that I could force myself through the pain and get out anyways. Something like hrxxx's cage, I would merely break one of the wooden studs, which should be very easy to do. The moment somebody restraints me, the first thing I start doing is looking for ways to get out. After 10 years of restraint play, I still have yet to be put in a form of restraints that I both couldn't get out of, as well as having no possible method of alerting the neighbors. The only types of restraints that have so far held me are the ones where I could have gotten out if I really wanted to, but lacked the motivation to go through that much trouble/pain/drawing attention to our activities, to make that worth it. So maybe I'm arrogant about this, but I'm personally really not too worried about something happening to the Top and me being unable to get out.

ARIES83 -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/4/2013 2:38:31 AM)
LadyPact, I imagine you have put a bit of thought into the possibility of a fire breaking out while you have a sub bound, given your candle (and candle safety) fetishes. SeekingTrinity, quote: ...Plus I am always walking quietly into the room to check. So my guy knows I'm there, but the "not being there" part lends itself to the mind trip that is powerlessness over the situation. I happen to switch with him and he does the same thing. Do I feel Im being negligent of him? No. He'd vote with his feet and since he keeps coming back, Im certain he doesnt think Im being negligent either. Do I feel he is being negligent? No, I know he'd never let anything bad happen intentionally. Thats pretty much how I see things. Dyfrynt, With that middle ground stuff, I was just poking fun at the two extremes, It wasn't a serious question.[8D] I think the issue is really one of trust rather than safety, or the thought of trusting ones safety to another... I think a lot of the people on the other side of the fence insisting the restrained party should have the ability to free themselves and shouldn't be left unattended are not heavily involved in what I would call non-consent/slavery type of activities, or at least the not the kinds of activities I do... the types of D/s done for a purpose other than "play". Arturas, As I wrote those last couple of lines I remembered what set me off on this line of questioning... quote: One never leaves the side of anyone bound and also has medical blunt point scissors ready to cut the bound subject free in an instant should it be necessary. I don't cage for any length of time; It is obvious this would be endangering the subject's life should a fire break out or I expire during that session. Leaving a cell phone in the cage does not save the subject if they have a heart attack or a fire breaks out in that room. These actions are the mark of someone who should not dom anyone. After doing a bit of Q&A with some of the people on this thread, I'm pretty confidant now that I'm not alone in my ideas on this stuff... Everyones different and a penchant for safety and planing is nothing to scoff at, but as shown here there are situations where many of your safety protocols and preferences would not be feasible. I think the subject is not as simple as to be able to say because someone leaves someone bound unattended or confined for long periods etc, they should not dom anyone... As for your tied up slave, If I was you, I'd make sure to command her to stay alive and be a mother to her children in the event of your death, hey if it was me I'd even go as far to add that she must live out her days as a spinster, never permitted to be with another man... I don't like sharing... even from beyond the grave...[8D] Ishtar, quote: I don't have a problem with a restraint person who either can or cannot release themselves being left alone, even so far as the Top leaving the house for a prolonged period of time, as long if: - It servers a purpose and is not being done just one a whim, without forethought. This also means that being unable to release oneself needs to serve addition purpose, that cannot be gained from leaving a 'just in case' escape option, like a key sealed inside a close envelope. - Both parties are aware of the potential risks. This among other things means that the type of restraint needs to be well thought out, and usually have been practiced before hand for longer than the duration the Top is planning to step out... shoving a girl in a cramped cage and stepping out not knowing she'll get massive cramps in half an hour is idiotic... not kinky in my book. Yes I'd like to think the type of things we're discussing are driven by purpose rather than idol play, I totally agree in the forethought department as well as knowing what your imposing on someone is a big one. As for the next part, well positive comes down to point of view sometimes haha... The sub having a heart attack is a scary thought... When I saw that cage ResidentSadist has with the phone in it I immediately thought "alibi"[:D]... It looks a lot better if the person you are keeping locked up in a cage has the ability to call for help... Or pizza as the case may be.

hrxxx -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/4/2013 3:02:30 AM)
quote: Something like hrxxx's cage, I would merely break one of the wooden studs, which should be very easy to do. Well it would not help you much, it´s iron under the wood

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/4/2013 8:11:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hrxxx quote: Something like hrxxx's cage, I would merely break one of the wooden studs, which should be very easy to do. Well it would not help you much, it´s iron under the wood Bullshit. If you're meaning imply that all those stud have a drilled out wooden core and a steel bar skeleton underneath, you sir, are quite plainly a liar. Somebody with the skill to do that would have build the cage out of metal, not bothering with the wood AND would have done a better job finishing the details of what's there. Those are plain studs with even less extra reenforcement from what a stud wall would half. They are just plain studs nailed against other studs that are attached to the wall and floor. The nail has been done with a steel plate, but that's quite irrelevant, because for the average person it's quite easy to snap a stud in half in such a frame if they through their weight into it. It would hurt a little, for sure, but when faced with death by dehydration, you're going to have a hard time finding a person not capable of breaking a stud in half with their whole body weight thrown in...

Rawni -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/4/2013 9:28:13 AM)
[sm=goodpost.gif]

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/4/2013 9:43:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ARIES83 Yes I'd like to think the type of things we're discussing are driven by purpose rather than idol play, I totally agree in the forethought department as well as knowing what your imposing on someone is a big one. I think we're somewhat opposites there, unless I'm misunderstanding you. While I wouldn't be inclined to do such play on a whim, without considering the consequences or the other options available, I only do such play for idle play reasons. Well, that is to say that there is only one reason for me to engage in that type of play, which is my sexual gratification. I don't dabble in TPE/slavery stuff anymore, so I'm personally not really willing to risk my life -no matter how small the chance- on doing something just for somebody else's desire/amusement. That leaves the fact that I am one fucked up kinky freak and there's a lot of extreme endurance/play that I like to engage in for my own gratification, but even so it's still something that comes from me. I personally, wouldn't -or any longer- respond very well with a Top putting me in a no-escape situation because he's trying to curve or correct serious disobedience and/or misbehavior. If it's meant as a punishment, in that I'm supposed to feel punished instead horny (which is rather hard to accomplish with me anyway) he should figure out something other than high(er) risk stuff to get that point across. When I'm playing edgy, there better be some serious payoff in it for me, otherwise I'll just tell the guy to go fuck himself. quote: ORIGINAL: ARIES83 The sub having a heart attack is a scary thought... When I saw that cage ResidentSadist has with the phone in it I immediately thought "alibi"[:D]... It looks a lot better if the person you are keeping locked up in a cage has the ability to call for help... Or pizza as the case may be. If I ever get to the point where I'm going to live out serious long term, inescapable restraint scenes (think a couple days/weeks in a "can't get out" possible full sensory deprivation scenario) I'd get a life alert to keep close at all times. It would prohibit the whole thing being used for recreational pursuits (or pizza), wouldn't be used without a good cause (because dealing with the ambulance that would show up and the cops consequently asking questions would suck royally), while at the same time providing the absolute security that IF something serious happened, there would be a safeguard in place.

hrxxx -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/4/2013 10:09:14 AM)
[image]http://s24.postimg.org/56lwh7w4l/Master_of_Steel_1_10.jpg[/image] quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: hrxxx quote: Something like hrxxx's cage, I would merely break one of the wooden studs, which should be very easy to do. Well it would not help you much, it´s iron under the wood Bullshit. If you're meaning imply that all those stud have a drilled out wooden core and a steel bar skeleton underneath, you sir, are quite plainly a liar. Somebody with the skill to do that would have build the cage out of metal, not bothering with the wood AND would have done a better job finishing the details of what's there. Those are plain studs with even less extra reenforcement from what a stud wall would half. They are just plain studs nailed against other studs that are attached to the wall and floor. The nail has been done with a steel plate, but that's quite irrelevant, because for the average person it's quite easy to snap a stud in half in such a frame if they through their weight into it. It would hurt a little, for sure, but when faced with death by dehydration, you're going to have a hard time finding a person not capable of breaking a stud in half with their whole body weight thrown in...

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/4/2013 10:15:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hrxxx [image]http://s24.postimg.org/56lwh7w4l/Master_of_Steel_1_10.jpg[/image] Considering I SPECIFICALLY said "break wood stud" I would have assumed that it was painfully clear that I was talking about this cage: http://www.collarchat.com/m_4482887/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#4483063, and not the one you posted above. Also, how exactly does that metal cage have "Well it would not help you much, it´s iron under the wood"? Sorry dude, that metal cage doesn't show wood on the picture, and your wooden cage does NOT have a metal enforced skeleton in hollowed out wooden studs... if you claim that, you're still a liar. On the metal one, it would simple be a matter of rolling/pushing/shoving it to a place where I could either break a window and scream to the neighbors for help, or reach a phone. It would be a long and exhausting endeavor, totally not worth it to just get out to get on a Top's nerves, but death by dehydration wouldn't be a concern.

hrxxx -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/4/2013 10:23:55 AM)
You mean my cell! It's weird to me that I have to teach what English words mean. it is a big difference between cage and cell, I thought you knew.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Bondage/Confinement Ethics and Preparedness. (7/4/2013 10:33:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hrxxx You mean my cell! It's weird to me that I have to teach what English words mean. it is a big difference between cage and cell, I thought you knew. Cage, cell, whatever. Your wooden enclosure counts as either a cage or a cell in English. A dog pen would qualify as a cage, even though it's much like your "cell". There isn't a big difference between a cage and a cell in this case either. The definition of a cell is: - a small room in which a prisoner is locked up or in which a monk or nun sleeps The definiton of a cage is: - a structure of bars or wires in which birds or other animals are confined - a prison cell or camp. Your "cell" is much more a "structure of bars or wires in which birds or other animals are confined" than it is a "a small room in which a prisoner is locked up". So before you presume that you're teaching English, you may actually want to look up the definition of words... Either way, I LINKED in the post I made to you which one I was talking about, and in addition to that it should have been painfully clear which one I was talking about because I specifically said "wooden stud" several times, so there is no excuse for you to be confused. So please explain to me -considering that you're now claiming that you didn't understand which "cage" I was talking about- how it is that your METAL cage has "iron UNDER the wood"? You just keep going dude, you're only digging yourself a bigger and bigger hole on your entire unfounded blasé attitude.

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