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njlauren -> RE: The dumbest interpretation (7/6/2013 5:50:06 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Its just that unlike most christians, I am not deeply ignorant of history, science, or reality. And as for the insipid "but I am a good christian" dont forget the nazi and the french who drove the jews out were all devout christians too.
be careful, the people in Denmark who helped their Jewish population escape, the people all over Europe who did what they could to try and save the Jews, help them (Raul Wallenberg, for example) were Christian, and there were people like Neimoller and Bonhoeffer who risked their lives and often lost it, trying to do the right thing, and there were Catholic priests, nuns and lay people who laid down their lives to try and resist the Nazis, and all were Christian. That doesn't exonerate the organized religion, despite all the tries by Catholic apologists, the Vatican and the then Pope, Pius XII, not to mention the German Catholic church, were blinded by their own anti semitism and their vision of Germany as a Christian bulwark against the Godless Russians, that they basically did nothing, and what little they did was too little, too late. There was a serious proposal on the table from the Germans to settle the Jews in the US, but it didn't happen, to a large deal because religious leaders like Spellman in NY (head of NY archdiocese) and the bible thumpers from down south and the midwest, threatened political destruction on the government if they settled jews in any kind of numbers here, so I am not making excuses.
And no, I don't put out the dodge that people who did these things really weren't Christians, because obviously they weren't following Christ's teachings. While I cannot argue that, I will argue that the people, and their clergy and leaders, didn't seem to think so, at least not enough to do something. In Denmark, when the Nazis issued their decree that jews wear the yellow star, a large percentage of the population, including the head of the Lutheran Church, the King of Denmark and so forth, put on the yellow star of David and later helped the Jews escape. Unfortunately, most churches stayed silent, the Pope issued 16 encyclicals against actions of the Nazis they deplored, like euthanizing handicapped people and children, but never uttered one word in the Jews defense (in part because the Vatican was led by a bunch of people who were quite anti semitic, Pius XII in writings called them dogs, claimed that Germany when they passed the Nuremberg laws were 'protecting Christian Europe', and even when knowledge of the gas chambers and mass executions came out, the Pope said nothing (and how the church could even think of canonizing someone like Pius XII I don't know; saints are supposed to lead exemplary lives, Pius XII didn't, his record was shameful, whatever the reasons, and his actions after the war was worse, he knew and approved of efforts by Catholic priests in Germany to help sought after war criminals get away under Vatican diplomatic passports), and even after WWII refused to speak out about the Holocaust, did nothing to the church people accused of aiding and abetting the final solution, and while he excommunicated all practicing communists, the church never excommunicated one Catholic accused of war crimes and even convicted of them....
Don't confuse what church leaders do with Christianity, as history has shown they often act more like mobsters and corrupt politicians (think of the current worldwide abuse scandal in the RC), Christianity itself isn't evil, what men do with it may be, but at its core it is not, and a lot of great things were inspired by Christians, the abolitionist movement came from Quakers and congregationalist Christians and unitarians(unfortunately, that wasn't universal, the mainstream churches, the RC, THe Episcopal and so forth,either stayed quiet or supported it,sadly), the civil rights movement caught fire in the churches, and these days there are plenty of churches that are fighting against the evangelical/GOP attempt to forge religion and state together, who support GLBT people and so forth, and in the Catholic Church only about 20% of their membership agrees with the vatican on issues like gays and so forth, and most of the ones who toe the party line are old, many Catholics support LGBT people, while their leadership is more akin to the religious leaders in Europe during the holocaust.
Christianity is a diverse religion, and the idea that every Christian is this evil monster wanting to force their religion on others is a false one, lots of Christians, even evangelical ones, recognize the right to self determination and aren't the obnoxious "you going to hell, boy, if you don't believe in the true Jesus as written about in scripture" or worse.
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