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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 11:28:42 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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Status: offline 		Another country heard from. Still upset are you?

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 11:28:50 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Nope... the edit was to reduce the spaces between the picture and the quote box that you were pretending to 'not see'.

No amount of your spin and denial is going to alter the reality that the post wasn't addressed to you, and was a direct reply to farglebargle's post about the flashlight.

You are being disingenuous by pretending that your name in the lower right corner means it was intended for you. Anyone who has been here long enough, has figured on that 'in reply to' gives the name of the last person in line.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

tsk tsk... the edit was to add the "quote".



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Profile   Post #: 482
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 11:30:25 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Again.. good try... but if you were quoting him through the system, it wouldnt have been in response to me... and the quote would have been there initially, instead of after me having made my post.

Its ok though, its not the first time you have been caught, I doubt its the last. I just like pointing out these things....

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 7/10/2013 11:31:47 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 483
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 11:31:42 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		So one more time, in spite of the flood of derailment posts aimed at the other posters... here is the topic at hand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Wow. Zimmerman's witness for his defense just identified Zimmerman's metal flashlight as an 'impact weapon'. So now Zimmerman's armed himself with not just his regular CCW, but another weapon -- as he provoked the aggression.

Does anyone dispute that approaching at night with a CLUB IN YOUR HAND isn't provocative?


So, here's the metal CLUB wielded by Zimmerman...




Looks to be almost as long as her hand.






< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 7/10/2013 11:32:29 AM >

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 11:36:09 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		If a hoodie and an iced tea makes for threatening, that flashlight is certainly a fuckin club.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 11:40:41 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

You used the term in the context that the man with brown skin and African ancestry (Zimmerman) deliberately murdered a black man for racist motives.


I said no such thing. Zimmerman may well have shot Trayvon out of fear for his life. I believe the racist motive came into play when Zimmerman first saw Trayvon and assumed that he must be up to no good. I have been careful not to impugn such a motive outright because, as I have stated, I don't know Zimmerman and cannot read his mind. I am also granting the benefit of the doubt on the general principle of innocent until proven guilty.

But I remain inclined to believe that racism played a role in Zimmerman's conclusion based upon human nature. Whether racism played a role or not is ultimately irrelevant... Zimmerman created the situation and therefore bears some responsibility for the outcome... which leads back to my original post that a manslaughter conviction would probably be more appropriate than a murder conviction.

quote:

The only thing you've given to back that up is 'everybody is racist', and the lie that Zimmerman has 'white privilege'.


I didn't say everyone is a racist though human nature would suggest the vast majority are. We are tribal species, naturally distrustful of those that are different. It takes a intellectually aware choice and will to overcome such tendencies and not be racist.

I did not claim that Zimmerman had or has white privilege. I am claiming that Trayvon lacked white privilege, that he was more likely to be considered as suspicious or up to no good simply because he was black.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 11:46:12 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		In all seriousness, I'm still missing any part of the initial set of events, that logically attaches the notion of racism to Zimmerman.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

You used the term in the context that the man with brown skin and African ancestry (Zimmerman) deliberately murdered a black man for racist motives.


I said no such thing. Zimmerman may well have shot Trayvon out of fear for his life. I believe the racist motive came into play when Zimmerman first saw Trayvon and assumed that he must be up to no good. I have been careful not to impugn such a motive outright because, as I have stated, I don't know Zimmerman and cannot read his mind. I am also granting the benefit of the doubt on the general principle of innocent until proven guilty.

But I remain inclined to believe that racism played a role in Zimmerman's conclusion based upon human nature. Whether racism played a role or not is ultimately irrelevant... Zimmerman created the situation and therefore bears some responsibility for the outcome... which leads back to my original post that a manslaughter conviction would probably be more appropriate than a murder conviction.

quote:

The only thing you've given to back that up is 'everybody is racist', and the lie that Zimmerman has 'white privilege'.


I didn't say everyone is a racist though human nature would suggest the vast majority are. We are tribal species, naturally distrustful of those that are different. It takes a intellectually aware choice and will to overcome such tendencies and not be racist.

I did not claim that Zimmerman had or has white privilege. I am claiming that Trayvon lacked white privilege, that he was more likely to be considered as suspicious or up to no good simply because he was black.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 12:08:27 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
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quote:

If I were walking down a street alone at night and saw an unknown teenager/adult male coming towards me, the only reason I would be more nervous if he were black than if he were white is because violent crime statistics prove that blacks are many times over more prone to commit violent crimes than whites. Facts are facts.


I have heard of no studies that show that black people are genetically inclined to be prone to violence. I am aware that black people are arrested, charged and convicted at higher rates than whites but then, black people look guilty... right?

quote:

While official racism has indeed been banned in America, one need only recall the words ("like a typical white person", "Crazy [racist] police") and actions (not prosecuting Black Panthers for voter intimidation) of the first black pResident of the United States of America to see that the inner reverse racism is still rampant and still affects the lives of all Americans, not just white Americans.


There is no such thing as reverse racism, something is either racist or it's not. None of those things President Obama allegedly said or did negatively affected me in anyway or the vast majority of whites in anyway. Black racism against whites simply does not carry the same power as white racism against blacks. White racism and black racism are not on an equal footing. Period.

quote:

Given the recent history of black teenagers having been arrested for numerous home invasions in the complex, even while the residents were home (talk about brazen gangstas), and the fact that Zimmerman didn't know who Martin was, Trayvon did indeed owe George a polite explanation.


Emphasis mine.

Wow.

Holy mother fucking wow.

The racist condescending attitude behind that statement...

"Explain your self boy, and be polite about it."

Just wow.

You really are off the fucking deep end.

I'm done with you.


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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 12:14:45 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

In 2010, despite representing less than 13% of the population, blacks were responsible for 48% of the entire national single-victim single-offender homicide rate. And in New York City, where they form a larger percentage of the population, 61% of all homicides recorded between 2003 and 2011 were committed by blacks.


Assuming, for the sake of argument, that your statistics are accurate... how does that in anyway make Trayvon more suspicious. Did he not, as a human being and a American citizen, deserve the benefit of the doubt? The majority of serial killers are white. If I see you walking down the street toward me should I think, "oh no, a serial killer!"

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 12:18:01 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

In all seriousness, I'm still missing any part of the initial set of events, that logically attaches the notion of racism to Zimmerman.


Only because you want to.

none are so blind as those who refuse to see.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 12:22:50 PM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

"Explain your self boy, and be polite about it."

I know race-baiting is fun, but try reflecting on the fact that you said that, not him.

K.

(in reply to Marc2b)
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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 12:40:35 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		Should the jury have a manslaughter option?

No. But its irrelevent. Zimmerman is innocent and will be found so. Whether he will be found so by this jury, or when overturned on appeal is irrelevent.

But then there are so many things that I think are irrelevent in this case.

People say that its Zimmerman 'stalked' him - that Zimmerman had no right to 'accost' Travon.
Sorry. I disagree. On a public sidewalk, I have a right to talk to you. You may not like that I have that right. Too bad.

People say that Zimmerman shouldn't have followed Trayvon.
Lets ignore the whether he should or shouldnt' have. Sworn testimony, supported by facts is that he wasn't. He had lost sight of Travon and was going back to his car when he got jumped.

Skittles and ice tea are irrelevent. Its an unlit street, dark, on a night its raining and someone is beating you up. You don't know if their armed, you don't know if they are going to kill you. Damn straight you have the right to defend yourself.


As far as I'm concerned Travon was a thug that made poor life choices. I wish he hadn't made those choices. But the flip side of that is that I'm glad Zimmerman took him out of the gene pool - because on the day he died, martin was a thug. It didn't matter that it was Zimmerman - it could have been any (white) person that challenged him - the result would have been the same. Travon would have jumped them. The difference here was zimmerman was armed.


Finally, I am one of the Florida voters that was in favor of stand your ground, and I will be damn sure to be supporting it in the future. And frankly I wish we could punish the special prosecutor. This is a political trial intended mollify blacks at the expense of zimmerman. And frankly he deserves compensation for his time.


< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 7/10/2013 12:41:48 PM >

(in reply to Marc2b)
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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 12:55:16 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		People say that its Zimmerman 'stalked' him - that Zimmerman had no right to 'accost' Travon.
Sorry. I disagree. On a public sidewalk, I have a right to talk to you. You may not like that I have that right. Too bad.

People say that Zimmerman shouldn't have followed Trayvon.
Lets ignore the whether he should or shouldnt' have



You might want to work on that bit of miasma right there.

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Profile   Post #: 493
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 1:20:11 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I know race-baiting is fun, but try reflecting on the fact that you said that, not him.


If he thinks that Trayvon not only owed Zimmerman an explanation but a polite explanation, then his attitude is evident... and, quite frankly, disgusting.


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Profile   Post #: 494
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 1:21:14 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

People say that its Zimmerman 'stalked' him - that Zimmerman had no right to 'accost' Travon.
Sorry. I disagree. On a public sidewalk, I have a right to talk to you. You may not like that I have that right. Too bad.

People say that Zimmerman shouldn't have followed Trayvon.
Lets ignore the whether he should or shouldnt' have



You might want to work on that bit of miasma right there.


No work necessary. I'm perfectly content as stated.

Public sidewalk. You want to head one direction. I'm entitled to go the same direction. I'm not entitled, perhaps to get in your face and yell at you - but there is no evidence that zimmerman did. Yet even if he had done so, its irrelevent. Martin is then not entitled to escalate to physical violence.

The bottom line of this case:

Does zimmerman have a believable case of self defense. Even absent injuries, I think the average person would say yes. remember - burden of proof is on the prosecution. Beyond a reasonable doubt ...

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 1:24:52 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, if you're cutting across someone's grass, in the rain, at night and someone asks you what you're doing - sign me up for one of those that think a polite explanation is in fact called for.

White, brown, yellow or green, I don't care what color you are. What is disgusting is that you don't think a polite explanation *is* called for.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 496
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 1:28:29 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Why does anyone have to be polite? I can say.. "fuck off asshole".. all day long. I dont have to answer anyone's questions, even from the police. What makes anyone think Z deserved any more?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 497
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 1:35:32 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I guess you missed the whole "Following someone around at night without identifying yourself or providing any legal reason to be following them" being provocative -- especially given the historical prevalence of abducting, torturing, and lynching black kids in the south.


Dude-what is your obsession with lynching?

Run the stats. Please. You'll find like 2 lynchings total (And I'm using lynching loosely-Tazzy, we've already gone round this on another thread and IIRC, I'm using your figures. One was a dragging, not a traditional lynching)over the past forty years.
Then examine what the rates of Black and White crimes are over the same period.

Cut it any way you like, right now, and for some time in America, a white person has much more chance of being assaulted/attacked/victimized by a black than the other way around.

Besides which, WTF-Zimmerman, in case you missed the memo, is Latin!

Where the hell is the great history of Latins lynching blacks?


< Message edited by Kana -- 7/10/2013 1:38:20 PM >

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 1:43:45 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		Having the right to do something, and it being the appropriate choice of action - are two different things tazzy.
If you're cutting across someone's lawn, and someone asks you what you're doing- it might be the homeowner. he's entitled to ask you not to cut across his grass.

You are doing something wrong. So the right choice is to be polite about it.

I would also advance the argument that its the 'right' choice because it minimizes the chances of something like this happening.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 499
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/10/2013 1:44:16 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		What I want is a straightforward answer to the question. How does Martin calling a brown skinned man the N word, make Zimmerman the racist here?




quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

In all seriousness, I'm still missing any part of the initial set of events, that logically attaches the notion of racism to Zimmerman.


Only because you want to.

none are so blind as those who refuse to see.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 500
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