RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (Full Version)

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Powergamz1 -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:06:52 PM)

Yeah, those witnesses and medical records are exactly the same as the media admitting they fabricated the use of the N word by Zimmerman, and DeeDee testifying that it was Martin who called the brown skinned man the N word.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Hey, if he can claim that the dead thug attacked him on zero evidence, then turnabout is fair play: he's a racist.
[:D]





Phydeaux -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:07:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Funny you should mention that. It's all over the news. People everywhere, all of them white racists of course, shouting that he should have been shot sooner for not getting along with his mother. I think I hear a bunch of them outside right now.


Well what are you waiting for? Grab your video camera and record them... then post it on you tube. I mean, this is a rare occurrence, racists actually having the courage to show their true colors. Although I suspect that most of them don't care about Trayvon's relationship with his mother or his grades at school (it was what's his face that brought up all that blame the victim nonsense). Just the fact that he is black is reason enough for them to declare him the guilty one.


Whereas it is oh so easy to claim racism is behind every decision.
And I'll give you some advice - which you will promptly ignore.

Don't be so quick to assert racism what is adequately explained by stupidity.

Regarding post 488 - as I alluded to it in your previous post, clearly I had already read it.
As I said now three times, as far as I'm concerned I agree with the poster. You do owe him common courtesy. Just as I owe you common courtesy as well.

Just like you owe not cheating on your taxes, and being impartial as you can be in a jury trial. I also think you have moral and ethical obligations. I'm sorry you don't.




tazzygirl -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:08:31 PM)

~FR

~slides in another box of "non-tear-use" tissues.




Marc2b -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:19:18 PM)

quote:

Errrrrmmm.... Trayvon Martin isn't on trial. George Zimmerman is... You know, the brown skinned guy that *some* people have been busy declaring to be a racist on the basis of zero evidence.


And yet it is the dead black kid that some people want to blame because he made, in their opinion, "poor choices," during his lifetime. Choices like, apparently, thinking he could walk down the street without accounting for himself to random strangers.




Powergamz1 -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:24:03 PM)

The Kel Tec 9mm that he claims Martin was trying to get to, is a pretty convincing threat for a *reasonable* person. Maybe not for internet tough guys (and gals), but for sane people.

It doesn't matter whether anyone else believes the brown skinned man or not, all that matters is if the entire jury thinks that the prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt, that Martin could never have possibly accessed the weapon had the fight gone on.

That's been the premise from the beginning. Not SYG, not Zimmerman's non-existent use of racial slurs on the phone, not MMA or 52 Blocks, not age, not false claims about size or outdated pictures, not distorted snippets of ancient dueling laws, not tinfoil hat 'audio experts', and not the mish mash of self contradictory testimony from people who weren't even there.

Now... Using only the un-spun words of the forensic experts that were admitted into testimony, and the judge's instructions, somebody feel free to point out where the prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt, that it would have been impossible for Martin to gain control of the gun at any point. Because that is going to be what the jury is charged with.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Farg. For the umpteenth time. You do NOT have to be injured to be in fear of your imminent demise.

But there has to be something. Martin did not have a weapon, did not have Zimmerman in a position to actually kill him intentionally and was not using sufficient force to do any significant damage (this is according to the Zimmerman version of events which the prosecutor showed yesterday is a lie).

So even if you believe Zimmerman, which at this point is ludicrous, what was the cause of his imminent fear of death or great bodily harm that would have elicited the same fear in a reasonable person?





PressPlay -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:26:07 PM)

This is done. They will, I believe, let him walk. My last and useless question is this. Is the neighborhood Zimmerman lived in and Neighbor patrolled so rough that, he had to carry his gun with him when he went grocery shopping at Target? That's where he was headed when he noticed the drugged up Trayvonn Martin sneaking through.




Moonhead -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:36:17 PM)

As I pointed out above: if drugged up teenagers could beat the shit out of him, small wonder the pussy carried a gun everywhere.




Marc2b -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:37:58 PM)

quote:

Whereas it is oh so easy to claim racism is behind every decision.
And I'll give you some advice - which you will promptly ignore.


Who said anything about every decision? But given the history of racism in this country, it is not unreasonable to at least suspect that Trayvon would still be alive today if he were white.

quote:

Don't be so quick to assert racism what is adequately explained by stupidity.


Actually, I have presumed stupidity to be behind a lot of the posts on this thread but I've been too polite to say so. Then again, racism and stupidity often go hand in hand.

quote:

Regarding post 488 - as I alluded to it in your previous post, clearly I had already read it.
As I said now three times, as far as I'm concerned I agree with the poster. You do owe him common courtesy. Just as I owe you common courtesy as well.

Just like you owe not cheating on your taxes, and being impartial as you can be in a jury trial. I also think you have moral and ethical obligations. I'm sorry you don't.


Well, if you willing to let random strangers bully you, that is your choice. But if someone thinks they have the right to demand an explanation from me they better demonstrate some legal authority that entitles them to do so. If they arrogantly think they are entitled to a polite explanation, they can go fuck themselves. If I am polite it will be a courtesy extended by me... it is not an entitlement on their part. If they want politeness from me they are more likely to get it if they extend politeness to me. They can do that by, among other things, not stopping me while I walk down the street, doing nothing illegal, and arrogantly demanding an explanation for why I am there. I mean, c'mon, how fucking rude can you get?




Phydeaux -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:40:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Errrrrmmm.... Trayvon Martin isn't on trial. George Zimmerman is... You know, the brown skinned guy that *some* people have been busy declaring to be a racist on the basis of zero evidence.


And yet it is the dead black kid that some people want to blame because he made, in their opinion, "poor choices," during his lifetime. Choices like, apparently, thinking he could walk down the street without accounting for himself to random strangers.


Yes, I blame Travon. You are given one life. And how you use it - and what you choose to do with it is your responsibility. *Your* responsibility - just like it was travon's.

No one said travon couldnt walk down a street. No one said Zimmerman shouldn't have been polite. What I said was Travon had an obligation not to start a fist fight because he didn't like what Zimmerman had to say.




Powergamz1 -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:41:22 PM)

Mmmmmm... there's more to Florida than that. Read about Rosewood. Read about how some tomato growers locked their workers in pens and brutalized them as recently as the 1990s.

From Ocala on up, the rest of the state is pretty well known as Lower Alabama and Lower Georgia.

The capital of Florida is referred to as 'Tallapatch', with good reason.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It all is going to hang today on how the Judge instructs the Jury. There's no cut and dried definition of 'provoked', and Zimmerman's following of Martin certainly meets my standard for it -- given the reasonable fear any black male would have walking alone in the south and being followed and chased by an UNIDENTIFIED person at night.



I really hate liberal, ignorant new yorkers.

Saying Florida is part of the "south" is like saying the bronx is part of the south, just because its south of albany. Florida has nothing in common with georgia, alabama, virginia et.al. And frankly Miami was known as New York's 6th borough until the Marial Boatlift made it Havana's borough. We are a tourism economy with trade and entertainment ties to most of the world - not a plantation / mfg mentality. Canada not the confederacy.

So much for the accuracy of the word "south".
And the statement "given the reasonable fear that any black male would have walking alone in the south" - is racist and ignorant beyond belief.

I roomed with black men while in college. I work in a predominantly black and hispanic factory now. Never, in more than 40 years has a black man said anything about being afraid to walk anywhere alone. Not in Miami, not in Atlanta. Perhaps thats a problem in New York.

And Zimmerman's testimony (corroborated by the dispatch call) was that at the time of the incident he had lost sight of Travon and was heading back to his car. Also corroborated by two witnesses. So much for the "chase" theory. For that matter so much for "all Z had to do was identify himself" theory. Martin was a thug.

Others have educated you that you are wrong that there is not a cut and dried meaning for provoked. About the only thing I agree with you on is that much will depend on the jury instruction.






mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:42:47 PM)

And we are unsure if he started a fistfight, there is no evidence for that.

However, George has been given one life, and it is worth about as much as asswipe used on both sides, regardless of the verdict.




tazzygirl -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:46:05 PM)

~FR

knees in the arm pits... this is getting funny




Powergamz1 -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:47:22 PM)

Depends on your definition of 'had to'...

Sanford is part of O'Town, which has its share of violent crime. There were apparently break ins in that subdivision before Zimmerman ever got involved in the neighborhood watch, and if I recall correctly, he was advised by a friend in law enforcement about carrying.



quote:

ORIGINAL: PressPlay

This is done. They will, I believe, let him walk. My last and useless question is this. Is the neighborhood Zimmerman lived in and Neighbor patrolled so rough that, he had to carry his gun with him when he went grocery shopping at Target? That's where he was headed when he noticed the drugged up Trayvonn Martin sneaking through.





Phydeaux -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:50:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Whereas it is oh so easy to claim racism is behind every decision.
And I'll give you some advice - which you will promptly ignore.


Who said anything about every decision? But given the history of racism in this country, it is not unreasonable to at least suspect that Trayvon would still be alive today if he were white.



It is just as reasonable to suspect that if Zimmerman were black Trayvon would be alive.
NOTHING in this trial that racism be injected. It is only what you bring to the table.




Marc2b -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:51:13 PM)

quote:

Yes, I blame Travon. You are given one life. And how you use it - and what you choose to do with it is your responsibility. *Your* responsibility - just like it was travon's.

No one said travon couldnt walk down a street. No one said Zimmerman shouldn't have been polite. What I said was Travon had an obligation not to start a fist fight because he didn't like what Zimmerman had to say.


Zimmerman apparently felt that Trayvon shouldn't be walking down the street. Trayvon, who may well have reacted out of fear, wouldn't have been in that position had Zimmerman minded his own business.

That remains the bottom line, Zimmerman created the situation.




Powergamz1 -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:52:41 PM)

Who specifically is blaming the dead black kid, and in what specific manner?

Because so far, we have you repeatedly calling the brown skinned man a racist, and refusing to back it up, followed by what look suspiciously like projection to deflect attention away from your own words.

.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Errrrrmmm.... Trayvon Martin isn't on trial. George Zimmerman is... You know, the brown skinned guy that *some* people have been busy declaring to be a racist on the basis of zero evidence.


And yet it is the dead black kid that some people want to blame because he made, in their opinion, "poor choices," during his lifetime. Choices like, apparently, thinking he could walk down the street without accounting for himself to random strangers.





Lucylastic -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:54:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux




Yes, I blame Travon. You are given one life. And how you use it - and what you choose to do with it is your responsibility. *Your* responsibility - just like it was travon's.

No one said travon couldnt walk down a street. No one said Zimmerman shouldn't have been polite. What I said was Travon had an obligation not to start a fist fight because he didn't like what Zimmerman had to say.






mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 1:55:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Who specifically is blaming the dead black kid, and in what specific manner?

Because so far, we have you repeatedly calling the brown skinned man a racist, and refusing to back it up, followed by what look suspiciously like projection to deflect attention away from your own words.

.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Errrrrmmm.... Trayvon Martin isn't on trial. George Zimmerman is... You know, the brown skinned guy that *some* people have been busy declaring to be a racist on the basis of zero evidence.


And yet it is the dead black kid that some people want to blame because he made, in their opinion, "poor choices," during his lifetime. Choices like, apparently, thinking he could walk down the street without accounting for himself to random strangers.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Yes, I blame Travon.



There's one there.




Powergamz1 -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:00:20 PM)

Marc2B was addressing 'some people' to me directly. I'm not that poster. Nice try though.
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Who specifically is blaming the dead black kid, and in what specific manner?

Because so far, we have you repeatedly calling the brown skinned man a racist, and refusing to back it up, followed by what look suspiciously like projection to deflect attention away from your own words.

.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Errrrrmmm.... Trayvon Martin isn't on trial. George Zimmerman is... You know, the brown skinned guy that *some* people have been busy declaring to be a racist on the basis of zero evidence.


And yet it is the dead black kid that some people want to blame because he made, in their opinion, "poor choices," during his lifetime. Choices like, apparently, thinking he could walk down the street without accounting for himself to random strangers.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Yes, I blame Travon.



There's one there.





Marc2b -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:02:02 PM)

quote:

Who specifically is blaming the dead black kid, and in what specific manner?


Anyone and everyone who thinks that Zimmerman bears no responsibility for creating the situation in the first place. I have already state that Zimmerman may well have been in fear for his life when he shot, which would not justify a murder charge... but he never would have been in that position if he hadn't presumed that a black kid walking down the street must be up to no good. Zimmerman created the situation and therefore should at least be convicted of manslaughter.

quote:

Because so far, we have you repeatedly calling the brown skinned man a racist, and refusing to back it up, followed by what look suspiciously like projection to deflect attention away from your own words.


What the fuck does Zimmerman's skin color have to do with whether or not he is a racist? I stated earlier that black (or brown, for that matter) and white racism are not on an equal footing... but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

I have also stated repeatedly that I do not know for a fact why Zimmerman was so suspicious of Trayvon but that I suspect racism played a role given the circumstances and the history of anti-black racism in this country. I think it is a reasonable suspicion... you don't... but you are wrong.




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