RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option

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RacerJim -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:02:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail And we are unsure if he started a fistfight, there is no evidence for that. However, George has been given one life, and it is worth about as much as asswipe used on both sides, regardless of the verdict. That there is no evidence that George started a fistfight and, moreover, lots of evidence that George acted in self-defense, is why the Sheriff and local D.A. refused to file any charges against George -- for which they were both fired, a special prosecutor assigned, and charges filed due to pressure from race-baiting activists and political connections all the way up to Eric Holder and Barack Obama.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:03:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Yes, I brought up high carry, and low carry (weapon pointed up, or down, finger along the slide), which any police academy graduate would be familiar with... and you claimed that was a threat of deadly force, just like pointing the weapon directly at someone. Which is of course, nonsense. The comment about my height and weight was about my service in the US military and law enforcement. In other words, federal. So your links to pictures of local cops are purely an evasion. You were working with federal law enforcement, and they were pretty crappy at 'hand to hand combat'? When was this WWI? Its been def-tac for decades. In any case, I can think of one AFGE case of a federal employee filing a grievance over the standards, and his basis was that he had originally been hired as a guard under a set aside for retired military, and the entry law enforcement standards were arbitrarily added to the position description later. As I recall, he won that one because he was not in a law enforcement position. quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Aren't you the one who had no clue about HC, and LC? And in fact claimed that those were legally identical to pointing a gun straight at someone? Pardon me if I take my information from my actual colleagues. Aren't you the one with no reading comprehension? I never mentioned HC or LC, you did[8\|] I was working with them on advanced hand to hand. They were pretty crappy at the beginning of the summer. Now, back to my comments about portly police. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGIrIjeeNKk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niZP6WuGkq4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o4_iYl310g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1EOHmqxCgQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qk3Qh9wml4 So much for law enforcement requiring their members to adhere to those guidelines. They got the Union going to bat for them. No, what I said oh Mr lack of reading comprehension is that you can change positions in well under a half second. which would make someone have to make some fast decisions. You didn't say Federal law enforcement. You said "US Military and law enforcement" That's military in the US and Law enforcement in the US. There is more LE than Federal. if you mean "Federal", say "Federal". Please learn to write coherently. As for the training, it was a couple of decades ago and they sucked when they got into my gym but were vastly improved at the end of the summer and everyone had a hell of a lot of fun and got a ton of bruises. Hopefully, they were much better able to handle a struggling suspect without injury to themselves because they don't always go down easily like they do in training.

Phydeaux -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:08:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Yes, I blame Travon. You are given one life. And how you use it - and what you choose to do with it is your responsibility. Your responsibility - just like it was travon's. No one said travon couldnt walk down a street. No one said Zimmerman shouldn't have been polite. What I said was Travon had an obligation not to start a fist fight because he didn't like what Zimmerman had to say. Zimmerman apparently felt that Trayvon shouldn't be walking down the street. Trayvon, who may well have reacted out of fear, wouldn't have been in that position had Zimmerman minded his own business. That remains the bottom line, Zimmerman created the situation. Zimmerman walked sidewalks like he was entitled to do. Just like Travon. He engaged in free speech as he was entitled to do. Just like Travon. However, the preponderance of the evidence says that Travon threw the punch. Starting the fight -nothing else- created the situation that led to his death. Unless you think that yelling and confrontation absent physical contact inevitabley lead to death. In which case I don't think you drive much because millions of cases of road rage pretty much say that ugly situations don't justify homicide. Thousands of times each hour people get in each other's faces. That doesn't result in murder. And it isn't an excuse for it. But self defense is a defense against a murder or manslaughter charge. BTW, for the record, as I've said before - Zimmerman should have been polite. Hell, even deferential. Its just not worth the time wasted in a criminal investigation and a trial, even when found guilty. It would have been smart. But I see a guy trying to protect his neighborhood. Gets a lot of sympathy from me.

Moonhead -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:15:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux BTW, for the record, as I've said before - Zimmerman should have been polite. Hell, even deferential. Its just not worth the time wasted in a criminal investigation and a trial, even when found guilty. It would have been smart. But I see a guy trying to protect his neighborhood. Gets a lot of sympathy from me. Quite. The property values all take a nosedive as soon as these thugs start moving in, don't they?

Powergamz1 -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:24:00 PM)
One more time, the question addressed to me on that specific topic, was what I weighed when I was Zimmerman's age. At that age ( 20s - 30s) I was in the US military and then the federal law enforcement that I had previously mentioned, and yes, we had H/W standards that were similar to each other. If I had meant local, I would have said local. I didn't say local, so pull your head out of your assumptions, while trying to tap dance your way out of being wrong. quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Yes, I brought up high carry, and low carry (weapon pointed up, or down, finger along the slide), which any police academy graduate would be familiar with... and you claimed that was a threat of deadly force, just like pointing the weapon directly at someone. Which is of course, nonsense. The comment about my height and weight was about my service in the US military and law enforcement. In other words, federal. So your links to pictures of local cops are purely an evasion. You were working with federal law enforcement, and they were pretty crappy at 'hand to hand combat'? When was this WWI? Its been def-tac for decades. In any case, I can think of one AFGE case of a federal employee filing a grievance over the standards, and his basis was that he had originally been hired as a guard under a set aside for retired military, and the entry law enforcement standards were arbitrarily added to the position description later. As I recall, he won that one because he was not in a law enforcement position. quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Aren't you the one who had no clue about HC, and LC? And in fact claimed that those were legally identical to pointing a gun straight at someone? Pardon me if I take my information from my actual colleagues. Aren't you the one with no reading comprehension? I never mentioned HC or LC, you did[8\|] I was working with them on advanced hand to hand. They were pretty crappy at the beginning of the summer. Now, back to my comments about portly police. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGIrIjeeNKk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niZP6WuGkq4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o4_iYl310g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1EOHmqxCgQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qk3Qh9wml4 So much for law enforcement requiring their members to adhere to those guidelines. They got the Union going to bat for them. No, what I said oh Mr lack of reading comprehension is that you can change positions in well under a half second. which would make someone have to make some fast decisions. You didn't say Federal law enforcement. You said "US Military and law enforcement" That's military in the US and Law enforcement in the US. There is more LE than Federal. if you mean "Federal", say "Federal". Please learn to write coherently. As for the training, it was a couple of decades ago and they sucked when they got into my gym but were vastly improved at the end of the summer and everyone had a hell of a lot of fun and got a ton of bruises. Hopefully, they were much better able to handle a struggling suspect without injury to themselves because they don't always go down easily like they do in training.

mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:25:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RacerJim quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail And we are unsure if he started a fistfight, there is no evidence for that. However, George has been given one life, and it is worth about as much as asswipe used on both sides, regardless of the verdict. That there is no evidence that George started a fistfight and, moreover, lots of evidence that George acted in self-defense, is why the Sheriff and local D.A. refused to file any charges against George -- for which they were both fired, a special prosecutor assigned, and charges filed due to pressure from race-baiting activists and political connections all the way up to Eric Holder and Barack Obama. Yeah, same old blathering shit. There is no evidence that George acted in self-defense really, and no evidence contraindicating his starting the fight, really.

RacerJim -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:26:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Errrrrmmm.... Trayvon Martin isn't on trial. George Zimmerman is... You know, the brown skinned guy that some people have been busy declaring to be a racist on the basis of zero evidence. And yet it is the dead black kid that some people want to blame because he made, in their opinion, "poor choices," during his lifetime. Choices like, apparently, thinking he could walk down the street without accounting for himself to random strangers. Obviously you are either ignorant about the evidence and testimony or you don't care.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:27:07 PM)
And no evidence that space aliens didn't beam him up for a rectal probe, either. Do you have anything even remotely relevant to the topic of the trial? quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: RacerJim quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail And we are unsure if he started a fistfight, there is no evidence for that. However, George has been given one life, and it is worth about as much as asswipe used on both sides, regardless of the verdict. That there is no evidence that George started a fistfight and, moreover, lots of evidence that George acted in self-defense, is why the Sheriff and local D.A. refused to file any charges against George -- for which they were both fired, a special prosecutor assigned, and charges filed due to pressure from race-baiting activists and political connections all the way up to Eric Holder and Barack Obama. Yeah, same old blathering shit. There is no evidence that George acted in self-defense really, and no evidence contraindicating his starting the fight, really.

RacerJim -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:28:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: RacerJim quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail And we are unsure if he started a fistfight, there is no evidence for that. However, George has been given one life, and it is worth about as much as asswipe used on both sides, regardless of the verdict. That there is no evidence that George started a fistfight and, moreover, lots of evidence that George acted in self-defense, is why the Sheriff and local D.A. refused to file any charges against George -- for which they were both fired, a special prosecutor assigned, and charges filed due to pressure from race-baiting activists and political connections all the way up to Eric Holder and Barack Obama. Yeah, same old blathering shit. There is no evidence that George acted in self-defense really, and no evidence contraindicating his starting the fight, really. Exactly what I expected. Can't handle the facts/truth.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:30:11 PM)
Way to tack a non-stop string of falsehoods onto a nominally true statement at the beginning. quote: ORIGINAL: RacerJim That there is no evidence that George started a fistfight and, moreover, lots of evidence that George acted in self-defense, is why the Sheriff and local D.A. refused to file any charges against George -- for which they were both fired, a special prosecutor assigned, and charges filed due to pressure from race-baiting activists and political connections all the way up to Eric Holder and Barack Obama.

mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:31:56 PM)
There are no corrolated facts, just opinions, and hardly truth. Who saw Travon throw the first punch? Nobody, who saw the actual full interplay between Trayvon and George? What fact can there be, what truth? You don't have a very good command of the English Language.

Kana -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:43:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail There are no corrolated facts, just opinions, and hardly truth. Who saw Travon throw the first punch? Nobody, who saw the actual full interplay between Trayvon and George? What fact can there be, what truth? You don't have a very good command of the English Language. In Maryland, where I come from, dunno bout the rest of ya folk, this is called Reasonable Doubt. This is America. We operate on a legal system that says better 100 guilty people walk than 1 innocent be set free. This has been debated for 18 months. We've had a full trial. We still have no clue. No proof. Nothing concrete. What we do have is parties on both sides that are bringing in prefixed agendas (Like MarcB and his comments re this is racial based. Doood-Zimmerman is Latin. He may have black ancestors. I dunno bout you, but I don't recall a long history of Latin against lack violence in this country. But hey, I only have like 4 degrees. WTF would I know?) and some of the usual right wingers-both sides of which have brought their own shit to the table Two men made terrible decisions one night. One is dead. The others life is ruined. Are we willing to send him to jail on an opinion, or a feeling? That's the real question here.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:46:07 PM)
+1 quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail There are no corrolated facts, just opinions, and hardly truth. Who saw Travon throw the first punch? Nobody, who saw the actual full interplay between Trayvon and George? What fact can there be, what truth? You don't have a very good command of the English Language. In Maryland, where I come from, dunno bout the rest of ya folk, this is called Reasonable Doubt. This is America. We operate on a legal system that says better 100 guilty people walk than 1 innocent be set free. This has been debated for 18 months. We've had a full trial. We still have no clue. No proof. Nothing concrete. What we do have is parties on both sides that are bringing in prefixed agendas (Like MarcB and his comments re this is racial based. Doood-Zimmerman is Latin. He may have black ancestors. I dunno bout you, but I don't recall a long history of Latin against lack violence in this country. But hey, I only have like 4 degrees. WTF would I know?) and some of the usual right wingers-both sides of which have brought their own shit to the table Two men made terrible decisions one night. One is dead. The others life is ruined. Are we willing to send him to jail on an opinion, or a feeling? That's the real question here.

mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:48:24 PM)
Are we willing to send him to jail on an opinion, or a feeling? That's the real question here. ........................................... Yup, I'm good with that, Kana. Two people made dumb decisions, two people should pay. Nobody is too stupid to fail.

mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:51:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 And no evidence that space aliens didn't beam him up for a rectal probe, either. Do you have anything even remotely relevant to the topic of the trial? Why don't you forward something remotely relevant to the topic of the trial first, then I will respond in kind. The onus is not mine alone.

RacerJim -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:51:49 PM)
Talk about the Prosecutor deliberately misrepresenting what G.Z. said in order to call a G.Z. a liar... During his closing argument this afternoon, the lead Prosecutor emphatically hammered home his opinion that G.Z. lied about not knowing the street he was on when he called the police and told them he didn't know what street he was on and was going to walk (EAST) to the end of the walkway to find a street name. The Prosecutor showed the reenactment video the police did with G.Z. the day after the shooting. The video initially shows a police detective and G.Z. riding in a car with G.Z. describing what happened and when G.Z. mentions a street name the Prosecutor emphatically points that out to the jury...the car then makes a right turn, goes straight for maybe half a block, makes a left turn and when G.Z. mentions this is where he told police he didn't know what street he was on the Prosecutor even more emphatically points out to the jury that that proves G.Z. lied about not knowing what street he was on. HEY A$$HOLE PROSECUTOR -- TWO DIFFEENT STREETS!

RacerJim -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:55:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Are we willing to send him to jail on an opinion, or a feeling? That's the real question here. ........................................... Yup, I'm good with that, Kana. Two people made dumb decisions, two people should pay. Nobody is too stupid to fail. I sure hope not, else America is no longer a country of laws but, rather, of men.

RacerJim -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 2:57:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Way to tack a non-stop string of falsehoods onto a nominally true statement at the beginning. quote: ORIGINAL: RacerJim That there is no evidence that George started a fistfight and, moreover, lots of evidence that George acted in self-defense, is why the Sheriff and local D.A. refused to file any charges against George -- for which they were both fired, a special prosecutor assigned, and charges filed due to pressure from race-baiting activists and political connections all the way up to Eric Holder and Barack Obama. http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/conscience-realist/2013/jul/9/george-zimmerman-reportedly-tried-due-web-activist/

Kana -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 3:02:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Are we willing to send him to jail on an opinion, or a feeling? That's the real question here. ........................................... Yup, I'm good with that, Kana. Two people made dumb decisions, two people should pay. Nobody is too stupid to fail. So, I just want to be sure I have this right-You are 100% willing to send a man to prison with no proof, no solid evidence, just a hunch and a feeling? And you're admitting it in public? That's fucking scary, dude. Really frightening. Lynch mobs come from that perspective.

mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option (7/11/2013 3:06:24 PM)
So, I just want to be sure I have this right-You are 100% willing to send a man to prison with no proof, no solid evidence, just a hunch and a feeling? And you're admitting it in public? George Zimmerman killed a 17 year old kid with no proof, no solid evidence, just a hunch and a feeling, and admitted it in public. shrugs Horse apiece, I'd say.

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