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Can you honestly san that it would be different if Martin was white?

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

You all may have discussed this ad nauseam already, but it was a new perspective to me, and I thought it might interest others.

What about Martin's right to 'stand his ground?'

A few excerpts:

The question that has not surfaced in the courtroom -- the elephant in the room -- is this: Did Martin fear for his life after being followed and confronted by a stranger while going to the store to buy candy and a soft drink? Was he, Martin, justified in standing his ground and defending himself when this stranger, an apparent stalker, approached him in a threatening manner?

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ORIGINAL: RacerJim

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And we are unsure if he started a fistfight, there is no evidence for that.

However, George has been given one life, and it is worth about as much as asswipe used on both sides, regardless of the verdict.

That there is no evidence that George started a fistfight and, moreover, lots of evidence that George acted in self-defense, is why the Sheriff and local D.A. refused to file any charges against George -- for which they were both fired, a special prosecutor assigned, and charges filed due to pressure from race-baiting activists and political connections all the way up to Eric Holder and Barack Obama.

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Mmmmmm... there's more to Florida than that. Read about Rosewood. Read about how some tomato growers locked their workers in pens and brutalized them as recently as the 1990s.

From Ocala on up, the rest of the state is pretty well known as Lower Alabama and Lower Georgia.

The capital of Florida is referred to as 'Tallapatch', with good reason.

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It all is going to hang today on how the Judge instructs the Jury. There's no cut and dried definition of 'provoked', and Zimmerman's following of Martin certainly meets my standard for it -- given the reasonable fear any black male would have walking alone in the south and being followed and chased by an UNIDENTIFIED person at night.

I really hate liberal, ignorant new yorkers.

Saying Florida is part of the "south" is like saying the bronx is part of the south, just because its south of albany. Florida has nothing in common with georgia, alabama, virginia et.al. And frankly Miami was known as New York's 6th borough until the Marial Boatlift made it Havana's borough. We are a tourism economy with trade and entertainment ties to most of the world - not a plantation / mfg mentality. Canada not the confederacy.

So much for the accuracy of the word "south".
And the statement "given the reasonable fear that any black male would have walking alone in the south" - is racist and ignorant beyond belief.

I roomed with black men while in college. I work in a predominantly black and hispanic factory now. Never, in more than 40 years has a black man said anything about being afraid to walk anywhere alone. Not in Miami, not in Atlanta. Perhaps thats a problem in New York.

And Zimmerman's testimony (corroborated by the dispatch call) was that at the time of the incident he had lost sight of Travon and was heading back to his car. Also corroborated by two witnesses. So much for the "chase" theory. For that matter so much for "all Z had to do was identify himself" theory. Martin was a thug.

Others have educated you that you are wrong that there is not a cut and dried meaning for provoked. About the only thing I agree with you on is that much will depend on the jury instruction.

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Are we willing to send him to jail on an opinion, or a feeling?
That's the real question here.

...........................................

Yup, I'm good with that, Kana. Two people made dumb decisions, two people should pay. Nobody is too stupid to fail.

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I know about Rosewood. I have two sisters that went to FSU and I own property in on the west coast of Florida. I've never heard it called Tallapatch - and a google for that term only turns up Michael Moore and a couple of his ilk - a term of derision. Hardly mainstream usage.

Nonetheless I stand by what I said. Florida is not part of the "South"

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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Are we recycling the X-ray vision meme again?

Nope. Just asking a question. If it's reasonable to believe that Martin (unarmed) caused Zimmerman (armed) to fear for his life, is the opposite not possible as well?

Does self-defense require that one actually be in danger, or does simply thinking it suffice?

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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Can you honestly san that it would be different if Martin was white?

I think a white would have been far less likely to have aroused Zimmerman's--or most folks'--suspicions. In that case, the rest of this sad story--the pursuit, the mutual fear, the fight, the death--would probably never have happened.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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In what reality did brown skinned people create this automatic presumption of real danger to black people?

I'm not sure what you're attempting to ask here. You seem to be sacrificing clarity for snark.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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Are we recycling the X-ray vision meme again?

Nope. Just asking a question. If it's reasonable to believe that Martin (unarmed) caused Zimmerman (armed) to fear for his life, is the opposite not possible as well?

Does self-defense require that one actually be in danger, or does simply thinking it suffice?

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Stand by it all day long, you are in denial of reality, North Florida is nothing like South Florida.
It is very much like the South of 'In The Heat Of The Night'.

Tallahassee has around 200K people in a small area surrounded by farms, there is no GMA. No one who has been there would ever describe it as anything other than a small southern city.

O-town - over 2 million, Miami well over 5 million.

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I know about Rosewood. I have two sisters that went to FSU and I own property in on the west coast of Florida. I've never heard it called Tallapatch - and a google for that term only turns up Michael Moore and a couple of his ilk - a term of derision. Hardly mainstream usage.

Nonetheless I stand by what I said. Florida is not part of the "South"

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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I have stated several times what I think Martins true motivation was. He saw Zimmerman reach for his cell phone and thought he was going for a weapon. That would protect him if he was on trial but it in no way negates Zimmerman's right to defend him self.

If Martin thought Zimmerman had a weapon, did Martin, like Zimmerman, have the right to defend himself?

Why are you asking me a question I already answered .
Yes, and if he were on trial I would be calling for his acquittal .
This seems to be the hard part. A cell phone is not a weapon. While Martin may well have believed there to be a weapon being pulled that does not make it so. Thus when Martin attacked him Zimmerman's right to self defense was in no way negated.

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ORIGINAL: igor2003

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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I have stated several times what I think Martins true motivation was. He saw Zimmerman reach for his cell phone and thought he was going for a weapon. That would protect him if he was on trial but it in no way negates Zimmerman's right to defend him self.

If Martin thought Zimmerman had a weapon, did Martin, like Zimmerman, have the right to defend himself?

Why are you asking me a question I already answered .
Yes, and if he were on trial I would be calling for his acquittal .
This seems to be the hard part. A cell phone is not a weapon. While Martin may well have believed there to be a weapon being pulled that does not make it so. Thus when Martin attacked him Zimmerman's right to self defense was in no way negated.

Actually, if I remember correctly, one of the defense witnesses yesterday said that a cell phone could, in fact, be a weapon. Under cross-examination the now self-employed former police officer and now self-defense expert, was shown several items…I think it was Zimmerman’s flashlight, a cell phone, and a ball point pen…and was asked if each could be a weapon, and his answer was, “Yes” to each item. He then went on to say that most any item could be used as a weapon in the right circumstances.

Then, although it wasn’t allowed, the cartoon that the defense wanted to use as “evidence” brought out yet another fact which bolsters the idea that it was Zimmerman that attacked Martin…not the other way around. “How so?” you ask? Well let me tell you…

The cartoon showed Martin punching Zimmerman in the nose with his left hand. When asked why they showed Martin using his left hand, I think it was the gentleman that created the cartoon that explained that the damage to Zimmerman’s nose was mainly on the right side of his nose. For that to have happened, Martin would have most likely hit him with his left hand. Why is that important? Because Martin was RIGHT HANDED. If he intended to do some serious damage it is only logical that he would have used his dominant hand. But he didn’t use that hand. Why? Could it be that Zimmerman had a hold of Martins right arm, thus prompting Martin to yell, “Get off! Get off!” , as per Rachel Jeantel’s testimony, and forcing Martin to swing at Zimmerman with his LEFT HAND?

It still seems WAY more likely that Zimmerman, who had shown his aggressive tendencies all through the fiasco with his “Fucking punks” and “These assholes, they always get away” comments; with his ignoring Neighborhood Watch protocols; with his ignoring the NEN operators admonition to not follow; with his abrupt “What are you doing here?“ question; and with his prescriptions for adderoll and temazepam, both of which can cause increased aggression, anxiety, and even hallucinations, is most likely to have been the one to have started the physical contact. And with Jeantel’s testimony and the defense’s own cartoon “evidence” I don’t see how there can be much question.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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Can you honestly san that it would be different if Martin was white?

I think a white would have been far less likely to have aroused Zimmerman's--or most folks'--suspicions. In that case, the rest of this sad story--the pursuit, the mutual fear, the fight, the death--would probably never have happened.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And the gun was where? Im telling ya, Im not buying hat whole scenario, just because someone reaches into their front pocket doesnt make anyone believe they are reaching for a gun. Martin couldnt have seen a weapon.

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What exactly was it about Zimmerman's physical appearance that night which would rationally create a fear of being lynched or otherwise killed (based on the history of violence against blacks) in the hypothetical black person?

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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What exactly was it about Zimmerman's physical appearance that night which would rationally create a fear of being lynched or otherwise killed (based on the history of violence against blacks) in the hypothetical black person?

I said nothing about Zimmerman's appearance, so I'll let you play in peace with your straw man.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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What exactly was it about Zimmerman's physical appearance that night which would rationally create a fear of being lynched or otherwise killed (based on the history of violence against blacks) in the hypothetical black person?

I said nothing about Zimmerman's appearance, so I'll let you play in peace with your straw man.

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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What exactly was it about Zimmerman's physical appearance that night which would rationally create a fear of being lynched or otherwise killed (based on the history of violence against blacks) in the hypothetical black person?

I said nothing about Zimmerman's appearance, so I'll let you play in peace with your straw man.

I'll take it, then. The shaved head is a common hairstyle among hispanic gangs, and the red of Zimmerman's outer garment is a gang color.

I realize that brown/black violence is nowhere near as coverageworthy in the media as white/black, but it is a leading cause of death for black men of Trayvon's age group, and Georgie looks a lot more brown than white, no matter how the New York Times chose to characterize him.


I am glad of the news today that manslaughter will be available for the jury to consider. Regardless of how the verdict may go, I think that is the appropriate charge for them to be considering in this tragedy and travesty.