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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 3:19:50 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

But there has to be something. Martin did not have a weapon, did not have Zimmerman in a position to actually kill him intentionally and was not using sufficient force to do any significant damage (this is according to the Zimmerman version of events which the prosecutor showed yesterday is a lie).


Are you kidding , he was in a position to kill Zimmerman accidently, let alone on purpose.

But that fails the reasonable man standard. If we say that anything one person does to another that may accidentally kill them is reason to use lethal force then a hug or backslap qualifies.

The point is that if he could kill him accidentally he could easily do it on purpose, the only way Zimmerman could be sure he wouldn't was if he was a mind reader your not claiming he was are you?

I'm saying that it is legally insufficient to justify the use of deadly force. Saying Martin could have accidently killed Zimmerman is not enough. There needs to be a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm if a reasonable person was in the same predicament and that is simply not there. Losing a fistfight is not legal justification to kill someone.

(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 3:26:56 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

The Kel Tec 9mm that he claims Martin was trying to get to, is a pretty convincing threat for a *reasonable* person. Maybe not for internet tough guys (and gals), but for sane people.

Did you miss it? He no longer claims that. That is why all the BS about his injuries was introduced.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 3:32:30 PM   
DomKen


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FR

Why are we still even discussing this? Zimmerman's own witness yesterday said Zimmerman's story is untrue.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 4:26:50 PM   
Powergamz1


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Zimmerman no longer claims he was carrying a pistol? Did the police lie and put in fake pictures and statements from him and everything? So what gun shot Martin?


Or are you expecting anyone to believe that the defense attorneys have *withdrawn* their initial claim that the fighting and the grabbing caused Zimmerman to fear that he might be further incapacitated and then possibly shot?

Please provide a link to courtroom transcripts showing that withdrawal... otherwise, I might get the wrong idea that you were simply making up tinfoil hat theories or something


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

The Kel Tec 9mm that he claims Martin was trying to get to, is a pretty convincing threat for a *reasonable* person. Maybe not for internet tough guys (and gals), but for sane people.

Did you miss it? He no longer claims that. That is why all the BS about his injuries was introduced.



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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 4:29:47 PM   
Powergamz1


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That is very much the question here.

Because juries can play all sorts of games once the door closes.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Are we willing to send him to jail on an opinion, or a feeling?
That's the real question here.

...........................................

Yup, I'm good with that, Kana. Two people made dumb decisions, two people should pay. Nobody is too stupid to fail.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 4:37:40 PM   
Powergamz1


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When was Sheriff Enlsinger fired from his job? It's a constitutional elected office, who fired him? Racebaiting is when racists try to bait someone into responding to their racist taunts When exactly was the President involved with racists baiting minorities?
quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Way to tack a non-stop string of falsehoods onto a nominally true statement at the beginning.
quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim


That there is no evidence that George started a fistfight and, moreover, lots of evidence that George acted in self-defense, is why the Sheriff and local D.A. refused to file any charges against George -- for which they were both fired, a special prosecutor assigned, and charges filed due to pressure from race-baiting activists and political connections all the way up to Eric Holder and Barack Obama.





http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/conscience-realist/2013/jul/9/george-zimmerman-reportedly-tried-due-web-activist/



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 7/11/2013 4:38:01 PM >


_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to RacerJim)
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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 5:00:11 PM   
igor2003


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

Talk about the Prosecutor deliberately misrepresenting what G.Z. said in order to call a G.Z. a liar...

During his closing argument this afternoon, the lead Prosecutor emphatically hammered home his opinion that G.Z. lied about not knowing the street he was on when he called the police and told them he didn't know what street he was on and was going to walk (EAST) to the end of the walkway to find a street name. Yes, that is what he told police...after the fact, as a story to cover his ass. His story is that he walked all the way over there, in the rain to get an address for the police. But, if you listen to the NEN call he NEVER gave the police any kind of an address for that street. He didn't mention a house number or the street name during the time in question. So he walked all the way over there then changed his mind? Or did he make up that excuse to cover his ass? The Prosecutor showed the reenactment video the police did with G.Z. the day after the shooting. The video initially shows a police detective and G.Z. riding in a car with G.Z. describing what happened and when G.Z. mentions a street name the Prosecutor emphatically points that out to the jury...the car then makes a right turn, goes straight for maybe half a block, makes a left turn and when G.Z. mentions this is where he told police he didn't know what street he was on the Prosecutor even more emphatically points out to the jury that that proves G.Z. lied about not knowing what street he was on. HEY A$$HOLE PROSECUTOR -- TWO DIFFEENT STREETS! Wrong. The street that the car made the right turn on is the same street the car is on when it then turns left. It's one street that makes a turn. Three streets in the whole complex and Georgie can't remember the name of one of them? A street that he regularly drives past and on when entering or leaving the complex? A street that he partially walks along when he walks his dog? A crime fighting Neighborhood Watch "Captain" that can't remember the names of three whole streets? A street that he instantly knew the name of the next day when he was doing his walk through?



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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 5:14:10 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

So, I just want to be sure I have this right-You are 100% willing to send a man to prison with no proof, no solid evidence, just a hunch and a feeling?
And you're admitting it in public?


You know what gets me? The "no regrets".

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 5:26:48 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

He is responsible because he initiated the violence


Maybe he did or maybe he didn't, what does that have to do with all that other shit you brought up?

It negates everything you have said.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 709
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 5:28:51 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

OWED a POLITE explanation from that person...


Polite society indicates civility among its members. Having said that, there wasnt anything civil that night. Definitely isnt civil to watch someone go about their own business, it isnt civil to follow someone thinking they are doing something wrong, it isnt civil to assume someone is up to no good because of what clothes they are wearing, nor is it civil to approach someone demanding to know what they are doing there without introducing themselves first.

Most polite society frowns upon starting a fight and shooting your opponent if he looks like winning as well.

Martin started the fight.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 5:32:13 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Errrrrmmm.... Trayvon Martin isn't on trial. George Zimmerman is... You know, the brown skinned guy that *some* people have been busy declaring to be a racist on the basis of zero evidence.


And yet it is the dead black kid that some people want to blame because he made, in their opinion, "poor choices," during his lifetime. Choices like, apparently, thinking he could walk down the street without accounting for himself to random strangers.

No for thinking he can beat them up for being a cracker

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 711
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 5:36:33 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Are we willing to send him to jail on an opinion, or a feeling?
That's the real question here.

...........................................

Yup, I'm good with that, Kana. Two people made dumb decisions, two people should pay. Nobody is too stupid to fail.


Surely all trials are decided by somebod`s opinon, as influenced by the evidence.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 712
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 5:37:20 PM   
BamaD


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Who said anything about every decision? But given the history of racism in this country, it is not unreasonable to at least suspect that Trayvon would still be alive today if he were white.


Just as reasonable to at least suspect that if he had been white he wouldn't have attacked Zimmerman.
You can't convict on suspect no matter how much it will salve your white guilt.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 713
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 5:43:03 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

No for thinking he can beat them up for being a cracker


Yes, thats the only reason T would have to get into a fight that night... because he was approached by a "cracker".

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 714
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 5:46:20 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Martin started the fight.


There is no proof of this.



(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 715
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 5:47:16 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
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Is jury nullification a known problem in the former colonial power?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Are we willing to send him to jail on an opinion, or a feeling?
That's the real question here.

...........................................

Yup, I'm good with that, Kana. Two people made dumb decisions, two people should pay. Nobody is too stupid to fail.


Surely all trials are decided by somebod`s opinon, as influenced by the evidence.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 716
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 5:50:44 PM   
dcnovice


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FR

You all may have discussed this ad nauseam already, but it was a new perspective to me, and I thought it might interest others.

What about Martin's right to 'stand his ground?'

A few excerpts:

The question that has not surfaced in the courtroom -- the elephant in the room -- is this: Did Martin fear for his life after being followed and confronted by a stranger while going to the store to buy candy and a soft drink? Was he, Martin, justified in standing his ground and defending himself when this stranger, an apparent stalker, approached him in a threatening manner?

* * *


Think about it: We're told over and over that if Zimmerman was afraid of Martin, according to Florida law, he had the right to put a bullet in the chamber of his concealed handgun, get out of his car after being told not to by the 911 dispatcher and follow and confront Martin and shoot him to death.

At the same time, we are told that Martin, who had far greater reason to fear Zimmerman, practically and for reasons of American history, did not have the right to confront his stalker, stand his ground and defend himself, including by using his fists. We are told that this was entirely unjustified and by doing so, Martin justified his own execution.

* * *


One thing I feel sure of is that if Martin, in fear for his life, had used Zimmerman's own gun to shoot and possibly kill his attacker, when the police arrived on the scene, they would not have failed to charge him with murder.



_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 717
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 5:51:22 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

No for thinking he can beat them up for being a cracker


Yes, thats the only reason T would have to get into a fight that night... because he was approached by a "cracker".

Not what I said I was putting the fact that Martin started the fight in his terms. For some reason he can only see in terms of race. I have stated several times what I think Martins true motivation was. He saw Zimmerman reach for his cell phone and thought he was going for a weapon. That would protect him if he was on trial but it in no way negates Zimmerman's right to defend him self.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 718
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 5:52:30 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

Just as reasonable to at least suspect that if he had been white he wouldn't have attacked Zimmerman.

Because whites are more inherently peaceful?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 719
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/11/2013 5:52:52 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Martin started the fight.


There is no proof of this.




He is the only one to land a blow providing much more evidence that he started it than that Zimmerman did.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 720
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