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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 5:06:48 PM   
Moonhead


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So if you don't think society could be run through voluntary co-operation without double dealing, profiteering or skullduggery, why in Hell's name would a "free" market work if left to run itself along the same lines? That just means that there's no checks or controls on profiteering, inflated prices, financial bubbles, monopolies and other such beloved fixtures of late capitalism.

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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 5:10:38 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

The tariffs protected labor and the standard of living we could create and were supposed to enjoy with all of the hard work we were told...would secure for us.

It was never about raising revenue.

History is far more complex than that.

For much of the 19th century and into the 20th, the "have-nots"--farmers in the South and West--bitterly opposed tariffs, which they saw as protecting Northeastern industrialists at the expense (through a higher cost of living) of everyone else. The Populist movement arose in large part as a response to a McKinley tariff, and one of Woodrow Wilson's first acts as an avowedly progressive President was to lower the tariff. The idea of tariffs as beneficial to ordinary Americans is comparatively recent.

Not according to Madison and Hamilton who espoused just what I described. What those farmers saw as protecting the northern interests also protected the their interest but the economy was such that it was competing with huge foreign manufacturing that could dump their goods here forestalling our industrial development.

It had little to do with farming except to protect US manufacturing of farm implements.

If we didn't have those tariffs, our industrial development might have been killed in the crib.

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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 5:17:57 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

What those farmers saw as protecting the northern interests also protected the their interest

So you know better than the farmers themselves (or the representatives they elected) what was in their interest?

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it's never enough to keep up.

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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 5:27:58 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

So if you don't think society could be run through voluntary co-operation without double dealing, profiteering or skullduggery, why in Hell's name would a "free" market work if left to run itself along the same lines? That just means that there's no checks or controls on profiteering, inflated prices, financial bubbles, monopolies and other such beloved fixtures of late capitalism.

All of what you describe is an imaginary economy without ANY regulation. Banks should have been run locally but under one federal currency with state regulations...enforced. What you describe is either out right criminality or bribes or tools actually provided by a corrupt govt. that we've seen since the late 19th century.

Otherwise the cost of goods and services as well as the cost of capital would have been at that arms length table which did take place in most cases until the the profiteers bought govt. Example: Lincoln seeing that each bank issued its own currency and were outright thieves, declared a single federal currency and taxed the banks into obedience. Something presidents get killed for...oh wait...he was killed.

While I do not believe Lincoln was killed over banking (see 'Lincon's bank wars) soon as he was dead, his ideals were trashed and we were back to criminal banking. The marketplace you describe is what we've suffered since about the 1890's and then codified since govt. went to the federal reserve and banking was regulated in the interest of the bankers with govt, (taxpayer) money and backing that enabled further corruption and profiteering.

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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 5:39:42 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

What those farmers saw as protecting the northern interests also protected the their interest

So you know better than the farmers themselves (or the representatives they elected) what was in their interest?

All I am going on is what I read and the definition of words. Farming is agriculture not manufacturing and the prices of their product, food was in fact in a local free market.

Tariffs were to protect our new manufacturing base against huge foreign manufacturing interests. The McKinley tariffs of 1890 and only 4 years later the subsequent Wilson-Gorman Tariff in 1894 which lowered those tariffs, were to protect manufacturing.

One has no control over what the farmers of the time thought as all acts of govt. were 'sold' for the common good. Our founders and subsequent generations were faced with creating our own economic (manufacturing base) and we couldn't compete with huge foreign interests without tariffs.

What we see now and to an extent then, iare tariffs to protect the profiteer...not labor. What we see more of now is extremely specific tariffs to protect the investor class, certain agricultural products and the textile industry. (not to mention subsidies, tariffs being needed to protect profits and at our consumers expense)

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 7/8/2013 5:48:43 PM >

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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 5:48:09 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Farming is agriculture not manufacturing and the prices of their product, food was in fact in a local free market.

The problem for farmers was that tariffs raised the prices of things they needed to buy, a particular hardship for folks who tended to be cash-poor.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 5:54:03 PM   
tazzygirl


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~FR

Wasnt it the free market concept that brought us the problems like with the meat markets in the late 1800's early 1900's?

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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 5:55:20 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Farming is agriculture not manufacturing and the prices of their product, food was in fact in a local free market.

The problem for farmers was that tariffs raised the prices of things they needed to buy, a particular hardship for folks who tended to be cash-poor.

But since FDR and farm subsidies not to mention our own huge manufacturing base subsequent to WWII, has enriched the farmer and now our agricultural manufactured goods dominate and set the world price.

One of the greatest transfers of wealth in history has been from the consumer to the agric. industry via these govt. policies which has inspired or caused the loss of most small family farming but certainly not all. I think 80% of govt. agric. benefits go to some of the largest agric. interests in the US.

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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 6:03:42 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Wasnt it the free market concept that brought us the problems like with the meat markets in the late 1800's early 1900's?

Good point. And a chance to share some historical trivia.

Upton Sinclair intended The Jungle as an expose of working conditions. Instead, it aroused massive concern about food safety, leading ultimately to the creation of the FDA.

Sinclair lamented, "I aimed at the public's heart, and by accident I hit it in the stomach."

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 6:06:37 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

~FR

Wasnt it the free market concept that brought us the problems like with the meat markets in the late 1800's early 1900's?

I am not clear here what you mean tazzy. What problems ? If you mean deaths from bad meat, that's another regulation we just couldn't have...to much cost. Has nothing to do with a free pricing market but an unsafe, unregulated safety regime.

As for labor or customers being sickened, injured or killed, we know why those things happened. The capitalist were free to count such deaths as part of the others cost for doing business.

Hell, something like 11 people a month were killed making steel. But then you were almost as likely to be shot by their privateers (or the state militia or police) for going on strike. Govt. was always sent in to protect...the profiteers.

Nothing new here. People are still dying from tainted food and dangerous jobs. Just the cost of doing business in America. Shit like BP, coal mines, I call it corporate manslaughter and they get clean away with it. See Obama meets with BP oil execs. at the white house.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 7/8/2013 6:19:14 PM >

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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 6:18:17 PM   
tazzygirl


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That the free market has only itself as its major concern. The free market doesnt care about safety or standards. Its centered on the best possible money for the product it provides and only adjusts that product as the market demands. However, if everyone is offering the same product, there is no way to force the market to change the product even when its unsafe for use or consumption.

Unless I am misunderstanding it, the free market regulates itself, in theory...

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 6:23:19 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

That the free market has only itself as its major concern. The free market doesnt care about safety or standards. Its centered on the best possible money for the product it provides and only adjusts that product as the market demands. However, if everyone is offering the same product, there is no way to force the market to change the product even when its unsafe for use or consumption.

Unless I am misunderstanding it, the free market regulates itself, in theory...

You conflate free market when it comes to pricing and how govt, asists in profits vs an unregulated safety market. Two different things.

People weren't dying when they bought a house without FHA, Freddie and Fannie. People weren't dying from corrupt banking. They were all just ripped off.

Oh and no, a free market in determining safety as such and food and drug regulation...does not regulate itself. But those regulations are very susceptible to bribes or influence like drugs and even with an FDA or OSHA people are injured and die from drugs etc. in American business...every day.

So one is a free market without govt. supporting profits in pricing and the other is a regulated market where the financial whores shouldn't kill too many people in the making of an using their products. But of course...people still do.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 7/8/2013 6:32:39 PM >

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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 6:36:36 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

People weren't dying when they bought a house without FHA, Freddie and Fannie. People weren't dying from corrupt banking. They were all just ripped off.


I agree....yet, again, that was the "free market" finding loopholes.

quote:

Oh and no, a free market in determining safety as such and food and drug regulation...does not regulate itself. But those regulations are very susceptible to bribes or influence like drugs and even with an FDA people are injured and die from American business...every day.


Usually because the market took shortcuts, broke the rules, ect. That isnt a reason to get rid of them or to allow the "free market" to conduct business as it wants.

quote:

So one is a free market without govt. supporting profits in pricing and the other is a regulated market where the financial whores shouldn't kill too many people in the making of an using their products. But of course...people still do.


If we actually made such businesses responsible instead of slapping their fingers and telling them "Bad Boy", we wouldnt have the mess we have now.

My point was the US started out as a free market, or as close as you can possibly get to one. Because of greed and corruption, we now have the system we see currently.... without enough of a bite to hurt anyone but the little business owner.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 7:07:28 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

People weren't dying when they bought a house without FHA, Freddie and Fannie. People weren't dying from corrupt banking. They were all just ripped off.


I agree....yet, again, that was the "free market" finding loopholes.

quote:

Oh and no, a free market in determining safety as such and food and drug regulation...does not regulate itself. But those regulations are very susceptible to bribes or influence like drugs and even with an FDA people are injured and die from American business...every day.


Usually because the market took shortcuts, broke the rules, ect. That isnt a reason to get rid of them or to allow the "free market" to conduct business as it wants.


quote:

So one is a free market without govt. supporting profits in pricing and the other is a regulated market where the financial whores shouldn't kill too many people in the making of an using their products. But of course...people still do.


If we actually made such businesses responsible instead of slapping their fingers and telling them "Bad Boy", we wouldnt have the mess we have now.

My point was the US started out as a free market, or as close as you can possibly get to one. Because of greed and corruption, we now have the system we see currently.... without enough of a bite to hurt anyone but the little business owner.

Actually on your last you are unfortunately...absolutely correct. The corruption of big business and the regulations needed in an attempt to rein them in, has done as much to harm to small businessman trying to compete as just about anything.

Then again, the powers that be get most of their money from big business and then we have a court that confers constitutional rights upon them that then further corrupts the marketplace and politics.

One might argue we have derailed this post but not entirely because what we discuss...IS the future of America. Capitalist fascism.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 7/8/2013 7:09:28 PM >

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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 7:09:34 PM   
tazzygirl


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And I dont see an end in sight. Laws are made by politicians, politicians are bought by businesses, business is writing laws for the politicians to implement, and we keep voting in the same politicians.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: What the future holds for America - 7/8/2013 9:35:45 PM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I have noticed in my time here on collarme, that the majority of posters fall into one of two categories. There seem to be very few moderates on the boards.


I think it depends on how you define "moderate." What I see a lot of here is partisanship and strong devotion to the party line, whatever it may be. That tells me that a lot of people don't really think for themselves; they just follow whatever the party media tell them to follow. Strictly speaking, I would still define the majority here as "moderate," since the parties themselves are relatively moderate (even though they constantly accuse each other of being "extreme," but that's just your standard political mudslinging and not to be taken seriously).

quote:


So there are three possibilities for the Future of the United States, two in our control, one that isnt.

Option 1, the ultra conservatives gain the upper hand and we end up with a theocracy, i.e like V for Vendetta or the classic "The Handmaid's Tale."


I'm not too wild about this option. I don't think ultra conservatives will gain the upper hand anyway, although I don't see conservatives as being as monolithic as they're sometimes portrayed. I think the fiscal conservatives may gain the upper hand over the social conservatives, and it may be something more like a corporate run society, like in the movie Rollerball. We'll all have our comforts and gizmos, sitting around wondering where it's all coming from.

quote:


Option 2) We end up with a liberal country where everything is legal but guns.


I seriously doubt this will come to pass. We are a liberal country, strictly speaking, as we have been since our country was founded. Over the course of our development, we've become incrementally more liberal as time wore on.

In today's political language, "liberal" can have many interpretations, so we'd have to figure out what exactly a "liberal country" would look like. Oftentimes, "liberal" is associated with fiscal irresponsibility ("tax and spend"), along with the government waste, abuse, theft, and corruption that goes along with it. Of course, the "conservatives" aren't any better in this regard, although they would rather borrow and spend, but they still have all the waste, abuse, theft, and corruption.

That's primarily why I see any ideological rifts as being just bunkum for the masses. It doesn't matter which side gets into power, since we're still faced with the same wasteful, abusive, corrupt, thieving bureaucracy. That's really what needs to be fixed here.

Foreign policy is another area in need of fixing, but neither party seems willing or able to do much either way. That's what brings us to your third option.

quote:


Option 3) Some despot in some collapsing regime decides to start nuking people for making his life a living hell by setting up sanctions for human rights violations, sponsoring terrorism or just because he hasnt gotten laid in a month and he is going to nuke the planet.


I suppose that's always been a possibility. It doesn't even have to be some despot in a collapsing regime. The nuclear genie is pretty much out of the bottle, so it's only a matter of time before something like that falls into the wrong hands, if it hasn't already.

Perhaps there's some supervillain out there with some fiendish device and a diabolical plan to take over the world.

Another possibility would be something like Colossus: The Forbin Project. A giant supercomputer would just take over everything and stop all war.

quote:


In my opinion, compromise has become some evil thing that should never be considered by either side.

Personally, considering the problems that civilization has caused in the forms of pollution, poverty and general distrust, I would almost consider living in a post apocalyptic world a welcome change. At least then people would have a fair idea of where they stand in relation to everyone else.


At this point, I'm not really sure what the future holds. In the short-term, I predict more of the same, the usual political BS and mismanagement. The economy will have its ups and downs, although I think we'll have to take a harder look at certain resource and environmental issues in the long run.








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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/9/2013 1:54:46 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

So if you don't think society could be run through voluntary co-operation without double dealing, profiteering or skullduggery, why in Hell's name would a "free" market work if left to run itself along the same lines? That just means that there's no checks or controls on profiteering, inflated prices, financial bubbles, monopolies and other such beloved fixtures of late capitalism.


Breath and wasting spring to mind Moonie.

I am still smiling at the notion of socialism being a capitalist plot, since the capitalists already had control anyhow.

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RE: What the future holds for America - 7/9/2013 1:58:23 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And I dont see an end in sight. Laws are made by politicians, politicians are bought by businesses, business is writing laws for the politicians to implement, and we keep voting in the same politicians.


There is a big row over this very point in the UK Tazzy. I may well start a thread on the UK shenanigans.

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