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RE: Contracts - 7/9/2013 7:02:46 PM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: wckdmnd

Did anybody except me not take "throwing it in her face" as not literally throwing it in her face but more a figurative expression?

I was taking it figuratively as you telling her "you promised you'd obey when you signed this", which doesn't alter my point that, if you need to resort to doing that, you've already lost the battle.

Amazing. English isn't even your first language, and you made my point better than I did. Well done.

If you have to argue to get her submission, you've lost it. Or never had it.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

Post #: 81

RE: Contracts - 7/9/2013 7:11:33 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

quote:

ORIGINAL: wckdmnd

Wouldn't the steps you take be throwing the contract in her face? Because what you say there I totally agree that that's how it's done

I'm thinking its the "throw it in her face" I'm having the issue with. I can't see myself grabbing the contract and saying " see! You signed, do what I say"
I just don't work that way. I believe in communication, teaching...if needed, punishment. Then if warranted...the door. She knows she signed, I don't need to remind her.

I found that phrase alarming too. Throwing something in someone's face suggests lashing out or being spiteful. Even when something is going wrong in a relationship and it needs fixing, I think taking a confrontational and aggressive attitude about it is counterproductive.

K doesn't strike me as the type of person who throws things in people's faces in general - that's a sort of whiny, spoilt attitude to have.

Oh, it wasn't Master that this happened with. It was the ex Dom who I was with in real life for many years. We had a contract with from the very beginning, laying out the terms and rules of the relationship . He met another sub though and started seeing her even though I knew about it. Even when I asked him to stop he didn't saying it was never part of the contract and at that point I gave up on the relationship and I just simply stopped trying. It was at this point that I had the contract literally sometimes thrown in my face saying I was not living up to my part of the bargain, which of course, just made the relationship worse. Yup, lots of yelling and screaming and arguing involved and I do mean lots from both of us.

ETA: As for Master throwing things in my face...yup, he's done it but it's different with him. It's more like him "reminding" in a forceful type of tone of things but with him they are not things that are going to break us and they are not things that will destroy us. I know he's either getting his sadistic thrills from it or making sure I do what I'm told. Master doesn't yell or scream or argue or become violent...well not in the arguing and fighting sort of way.

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 7/9/2013 7:13:32 PM >

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Post #: 82

RE: Contracts - 7/9/2013 7:31:18 PM

SeekingTrinity

Posts: 1834
Joined: 5/29/2012
From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
Status: offline

~FRing it~

The way I see it is that if I have to rub my submissive's nose in this contract like it was the shit they took on my rug, I have bigger problems than my all-powerful contract being violated. I've lost the inspiration in my submissive to obey.

A BDSM-inspired contract holds no legal sway. It only holds as much spirit as the people entering into the contract put into it. Both parties, not just the submissive. If contracts work for people (K comes to mind as she mentioned having them in place for her girls), right on! Some of us don't feel the need for them...and that's okay too. It really comes down to whether both parties of the contract, NOT just the submissive, uphold their end of the deal if there is a contract in place. Frankly if I was doing things to betray the trust my submissive places in me (ie. cheating on them, hurting them beyond the scope of negotiated terms of the dynamic, violating their hard limits, etc), Id deserve that loss of faith in me on the part of the submissive. Could I really expect them to honor this contract if I brought it dishonor?

< Message edited by SeekingTrinity -- 7/9/2013 7:57:32 PM >

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 83

RE: Contracts - 7/9/2013 8:44:13 PM

Powergamz1

Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline

Wouldn't it simply be easier for all the Twoo Masters to get a warranty of obedience from the seller when they buy their Twoo subs and slaves, and not mess around with a contract?

(in reply to SeekingTrinity)

Post #: 84

RE: Contracts - 7/10/2013 10:45:21 AM

SwitchNSpanky

Posts: 418
Joined: 5/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Wouldn't it simply be easier for all the Twoo Masters to get a warranty of obedience from the seller when they buy their Twoo subs and slaves, and not mess around with a contract?

I know enough shady folks that I could prob actually buy a slave if that was something i wanted. But, I get off big knowing my slave is submitting voluntarily and that it's her decision to surrender. A contract tends to highlight that vollentary submission and so is actually a very hot toy. It's part of the fun. Line a whip or ball gag.

And yes. I know your poast was in jest. Jest pointing out why contracts can be fun.

_____________________________

I am a lover AND a fighter...

(in reply to Powergamz1)

Post #: 85

RE: Contracts - 7/10/2013 10:55:10 AM

Powergamz1

Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline

Me, jest? I buy all of my subs at Miracle Auctions.

Their motto is:

"If you got a good sub, it's a Miracle!".

quote:

ORIGINAL: SwitchNSpanky

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Wouldn't it simply be easier for all the Twoo Masters to get a warranty of obedience from the seller when they buy their Twoo subs and slaves, and not mess around with a contract?

I know enough shady folks that I could prob actually buy a slave if that was something i wanted. But, I get off big knowing my slave is submitting voluntarily and that it's her decision to surrender. A contract tends to highlight that vollentary submission and so is actually a very hot toy. It's part of the fun. Line a whip or ball gag.

And yes. I know your poast was in jest. Jest pointing out why contracts can be fun.

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to SwitchNSpanky)

Post #: 86

RE: Contracts - 7/10/2013 11:03:58 AM

SwitchNSpanky

Posts: 418
Joined: 5/28/2013
Status: offline

I've done contracts worded in "old English" and some written in my fake "leagaleese". I try to push the subs limits a bit when I write them but also include some "Master concessions" in there. Usually it's all stuff I already have planned. I like to give the sub/slave time to edit or modify the terms. It seems to add to our fun. But like DarkSteven has said. It's legally worthless. So. I have an "enforcement clause". If I or a sub violate the "wronged" party can completely cut off all contact with the violator. For me. It means my sub has 12 hours to get out of my house. It sounds scary. But in reality I won't throw somebody out like that. Ever. The trick is in my slave wondering if I just might. It adds "spice" to our play.

These days my wife knows she and our kids are my world. So I include a "failure consequence clause.". It's always different these days. My personal fave to date was she had to help the neighbor boys wash my truck while wearing a bathing suit. My wife is the neghborhood MILF and the Boys are crushing on her hard. It's cute and kinda funny. they can't say no to her. But. While they would be totally stoked she is not the type to encourage them. She hated this one. So.. I'm saving it for reuse.

_____________________________

I am a lover AND a fighter...

(in reply to SwitchNSpanky)

Post #: 87

RE: Contracts - 7/10/2013 11:08:26 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Is that an appropriate thing to do with underage children though? To have their parents believing your wife is deliberately coming on to their kids? To have her be persona non grata with the neighbors?

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to SwitchNSpanky)

Post #: 88

RE: Contracts - 7/10/2013 11:58:31 AM

LittleGirlHeart

Posts: 1427
Joined: 4/4/2013
Status: offline

I don't believe in them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wckdmnd

So as to not hijack a different thread. How do people feel about the use of contracts? Personally, I find them to be something tangible to refer to. As they spell out what's expected and what's not in no uncertain terms. However, others find them laughable. So how do you feel? Are they worth doing in a D/s or M/s dynamic? Or are they just something that gets in the way of you making it up as you go along?

_____________________________

We'll fight, not out of spite
For someone must stand up for what's right
'Cause where there's a man who has no voice
There ours shall go singing

(in reply to wckdmnd)

Post #: 89

RE: Contracts - 7/10/2013 1:27:28 PM

Kana

Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ETA: As for Master throwing things in my face...yup, he's done it but it's different with him. It's more like him "reminding" in a forceful type of tone of things but with him they are not things that are going to break us and they are not things that will destroy us. I know he's either getting his sadistic thrills from it or making sure I do what I'm told. Master doesn't yell or scream or argue or become violent...well not in the arguing and fighting sort of way.

Hah-He throws it in your face while cackling

And seriously here, as in no shit, in seven plus years, we've never yelled, never screamed, never been violent outside of play. It ain't who we are or how we roll.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to LittleGirlHeart)

Post #: 90

RE: Contracts - 7/10/2013 3:21:13 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

OK. I read this whole thread. While I give My apologies to the BBT enthusiasts, I'm actually not one of them, so I'm going to skip that part.

Personally, I'm not a fan of contracts. Yes, some people like them and some people use them. Can they be a tool? Yes. Very much in the same way that certain formalities can be a tool. Some people enjoy the anticipation factor of feeling what they are going to enter when they sign that piece of paper. It feels it deepens it, somehow. This is all dependent on the way the contract is constructed for some and others just want that feeling of formalizing their life being controlled in a certain way, without the option of input.

Now, if you're using the contract for those types of situations, it's benefiting you and the other party to some degree, and as far as I'm concerned, that's a "go for it" area. Have fun with it. Enjoy the order, formalization, the definitions, the scenarios, and all of that good stuff.

Somebody up there somewhere said something about this might be something that could be effective when a person is new. You know, I kind of agree with that. It's the very same reason that a lot of groups have by-laws, policies, and dungeon rules. When it comes to writing those or fine tuning them, I'm your gal. It's the same as when you write an SOP out in the work world. You're not really writing it for the person who is already doing the job. You're writing it for the person who isn't necessarily familiar with the job or how it's done.

Which is exactly why I'm not big on doing it for a dynamic. Somewhere between the "hey, it's nice to meet you" and the "we've got this power shift going on" thing, the other person has already (hopefully) acquired a knowledge of what is expected of them. Putting it on a piece of paper is somewhat redundant. It's not going to change the communication that you've already had about the expectations and can even be used by one of the parties saying that the discussion is closed on whatever it is when a certain subject comes up.

Truth be told, I'm actually the same way about when we have get togethers at the house. I don't have a formalized document for dungeon rules here. I was going to do it and then I realized I'm not bringing in people off of the street for play parties. It's pretty much folks who have been to dungeon events before. We give a quick tour, have a few signs up so people know which areas are for what, and if you have a question, ask My other half or Myself. Their prior knowledge of what is acceptable or not comes in pretty handy and saves Me a lot of typing. You can't do x, y, z at the community dungeon? Well, you can't do it here, either. If something is different, I tell people during the tour, and frankly, that really should be sufficient. I don't really need a reference document that says don't piss on the rug.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Kana)

Post #: 91

RE: Contracts - 7/10/2013 6:19:44 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

The problem with contracts are that they do exactly the opposite of what they are intended for. They restrict communication.

Instead of communicating with each other, they just write up a contract and think, "Ok, done. Now we never have to talk about our relationship again. It's on paper. Signed, sealed and delivered".

They forget they are in a relationship with the other person. They are human and humans are fallible. I have found in the past that those who like contracts are usually people who aren't terribly communicative and really not that great with relationships. Or they're into roleplay (nothing wrong with that, just stating what I have seen).

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 7/10/2013 6:20:07 PM >

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 92

RE: Contracts - 7/11/2013 7:55:32 AM

SwitchNSpanky

Posts: 418
Joined: 5/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Me, jest? I buy all of my subs at Miracle Auctions.

Their motto is:

"If you got a good sub, it's a Miracle!".

quote:

ORIGINAL: SwitchNSpanky

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Wouldn't it simply be easier for all the Twoo Masters to get a warranty of obedience from the seller when they buy their Twoo subs and slaves, and not mess around with a contract?

I know enough shady folks that I could prob actually buy a slave if that was something i wanted. But, I get off big knowing my slave is submitting voluntarily and that it's her decision to surrender. A contract tends to highlight that vollentary submission and so is actually a very hot toy. It's part of the fun. Line a whip or ball gag.

And yes. I know your poast was in jest. Jest pointing out why contracts can be fun.

I read this and spit a mouthful of coffee all over my trucks dash. Thanks for an awesome laugh to start my day.

_____________________________

I am a lover AND a fighter...

(in reply to Powergamz1)

Post #: 93

RE: Contracts - 7/11/2013 8:01:20 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

The problem with contracts are that they do exactly the opposite of what they are intended for. They restrict communication.

Instead of communicating with each other, they just write up a contract and think, "Ok, done. Now we never have to talk about our relationship again. It's on paper. Signed, sealed and delivered".

They forget they are in a relationship with the other person. They are human and humans are fallible. I have found in the past that those who like contracts are usually people who aren't terribly communicative and really not that great with relationships. Or they're into roleplay (nothing wrong with that, just stating what I have seen).

.

Okay, thats as silly as stating people who merely talk are unwilling to risk the commitment a contract would require.

Or as idiotic as saying since tons of people break up, most merely talked, far less people with contracts break up so a contract must be better.

Both talking and writing are tools dependent on the skill of the user.

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 94

RE: Contracts - 7/11/2013 8:13:24 AM

SwitchNSpanky

Posts: 418
Joined: 5/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Is that an appropriate thing to do with underage children though? To have their parents believing your wife is deliberately coming on to their kids? To have her be persona non grata with the neighbors?

No. That would be evil. Reading what I wrote I can see how you might get the impression that's what I was doing. Not at all. I actually hate involving non consenting public in play.

I usually wash my truck in shorts only. Wife does shorts and bathing suit top. My work truck is always muddy even tho it's washed several times a week. I often pay the neighbor kids to wash the truck. Saves me time and helps them get some spending money. I don't see a prob with boys seeing a bathing suit. I knew if wife "failed" and had to help the boys one day it would make their week. But. She never fails. (I have realistic expectations)

In general wife and I are "overly formal" for mainstream society. We don't talk excessively or overly familiarly with opposite sex. We are not alone with opposite sex without being uncomfortable. Sometimes you can take the Indian out of the Rez, but you can't take the Rez out of the Indian.

_____________________________

I am a lover AND a fighter...

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 95

RE: Contracts - 7/11/2013 11:20:34 AM

SailingBum

Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wckdmnd

Of course it's not legally enforceable. The contract even states such in the very beginning of it. Whether it's legally enforceable or not isn't the point. What is the point is it lays out, in no uncertain terms, the duties and responsibilities, of the parties involved

Dunno about you wckmnd. You ask a open ended question and the ppl that don't agree with your mindset you are very critical of. So it begs the question why ask in the first place if you are not going to keep a open mind and consider other ppl viewpoints!

It could be that your insecure or a "one true way" person. One of the features of this forum is to "listen" to views other than your own and "learn" from them.

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to wckdmnd)

Post #: 96

RE: Contracts - 7/11/2013 11:40:49 AM

SwitchNSpanky

Posts: 418
Joined: 5/28/2013
Status: offline

Damn. Don't get folks who claim a contract would stifle comunication. In my experiance the contract is well discussed. It heightens the anticipation of the event. It gets us talking kink frequently. Right now contracts are part of presents to one another cuz rest of the time I rule. She obeys and gets off like crazy. Both of us seem waaaay happy with this arrangement. We use contracts to change things up. To keep it "spicy". we write them as more of a gift than wish fulfillment. We do them as sn offering of sorts- as a sort of cupon. The cupon changes up the dynamic or enhances it. But. If we hand one out it means we are going extreame.

One example. Wife is no masochist. She hates pain. I'm a sadist. Usually I get to feed myself if she "messes up". Her giving me a "cupon" for a session dedicated to seeing how much she can handle is a huge gift. A Gargantuan gift actually. She said "I'll hang while hating every minute cuz I know you will love it and I want u to be happy today. ". Really. Does it ever get more awesome or loving than that?

_____________________________

I am a lover AND a fighter...

(in reply to SailingBum)

Post #: 97

RE: Contracts - 7/11/2013 11:45:42 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

So you contract the play sessions between you two? I have a feeling we are discussing different types of contracts.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SwitchNSpanky)

Post #: 98

RE: Contracts - 7/11/2013 11:55:03 AM

SailingBum

Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SwitchNSpanky

Damn. Don't get folks who claim a contract would stifle comunication. In my experiance the contract is well discussed. It heightens the anticipation of the event. It gets us talking kink frequently. Right now contracts are part of presents to one another cuz rest of the time I rule. She obeys and gets off like crazy. Both of us seem waaaay happy with this arrangement. We use contracts to change things up. To keep it "spicy". we write them as more of a gift than wish fulfillment. We do them as sn offering of sorts- as a sort of cupon. The cupon changes up the dynamic or enhances it. But. If we hand one out it means we are going extreame.

One example. Wife is no masochist. She hates pain. I'm a sadist. Usually I get to feed myself if she "messes up". Her giving me a "cupon" for a session dedicated to seeing how much she can handle is a huge gift. A Gargantuan gift actually. She said "I'll hang while hating every minute cuz I know you will love it and I want u to be happy today. ". Really. Does it ever get more awesome or loving than that?

Not quite my style. More like "shut the fuck up and take the pain for me" Whether she likes the pain or not doesn't matter to me, she is doing it cuz I told her to and I enjoi it. Either way works tho.

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to SwitchNSpanky)

Post #: 99

RE: Contracts - 7/11/2013 3:17:20 PM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

The problem with contracts are that they do exactly the opposite of what they are intended for. They restrict communication.

Instead of communicating with each other, they just write up a contract and think, "Ok, done. Now we never have to talk about our relationship again. It's on paper. Signed, sealed and delivered".

They forget they are in a relationship with the other person. They are human and humans are fallible. I have found in the past that those who like contracts are usually people who aren't terribly communicative and really not that great with relationships. Or they're into roleplay (nothing wrong with that, just stating what I have seen).

.

Okay, thats as silly as stating people who merely talk are unwilling to risk the commitment a contract would require.

Or as idiotic as saying since tons of people break up, most merely talked, far less people with contracts break up so a contract must be better.

Both talking and writing are tools dependent on the skill of the user.

How about you, Simply?

You've danced all around it in generalised terms (it's a tool etc) and you've sneered dismissively at those of us against contracts but, beyond "tool", why do *you* advocate relationship contracts?

Did you and Bossyboots have a contract, for example? Or are you talking about casual play with a relative stranger? Or both?

Or can I expect more of the usual silence every time I make a point or ask you a tough question?

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 100

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