RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (Full Version)

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Kana -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 7:29:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It is painful to say this: Trayvon Martin is not a miscarriage of American justice, but American justice itself. This is not our system malfunctioning. It is our system working as intended.

We don't have a justice system, we have a legal system. And it's working perfectly. You can kill someone who is part of the N*gger-Class and walk away secure in your knowledge that as long as you kill a N*gger, you're fine.

This isn't a problem with the law. It's AMERICA. This is our country.


America has a sad racial history it's true but your statement is hyperbole.

94% of black victims are assaulted by blacks and 86% of white victims are assaulted by whites. The numbers are approximate but you can see the message. Victimhood is a matter of proximity and opportunity, not race.




And courts are unconcerned about 'justice' for any of them. Zimmerman walked because he could afford White lawyers, and not N*gger Lawyers like everyone else gets.

I never said anything about 'victimhood'. I critiqued the America's BASIC FIBER and the courts which evolve from it.

And the biggest racist on the boards shows his hand.

It's funny watching the response from the Martin supporters.It's almost like watching birthers practicing denial.
Points
1-This wasn't about race. The only ones who made it about race were the media and politicians. In other words, racists taking advantage of a tragedy to advance personal agendas,most re gun control,SYG and race.
2-It wasn't about stand your ground either.Didn't get brought up once in court. Why? Because the defense didn't bother-they had self defense locked up.
3-What it was about was whether the state could prove beyond a reasonable doubt whether a black youth responded with unprovoked violence to being followed by a Latin. After 16 months of rhetoric and heated debate, a trial,zounds of witnesses, we still are no closer to a factual proof based answer than the day after the incident.
4-What we do know is that even the Prosecutions witnesses ofttimes took Z's side.
5-We know that the charges were politically motivated. We know that pressure came down from way high in the US Govt. We know that the city had internal pressures to charge Z,whether the charges were valid or not.We know that the media,foaming at the mouth, rabid as hell and out to stir any possible trouble,went nuts on this one. We know that that the Feds investigated Z and came up empty. We know that the Prosecution withheld evidence from the defense and did everything they could short of criminal misconduct (And maybe committed that)to obfuscate the facts and evidence. We know, because we watched it, that the judge was anti-defense.
And we know that despite all those obstacles,despite all the pressure, when push came to shove,that a jury of six people unanimously found Z not guilty.


That says something there.
People don't have to like it,but in this case,our legal system worked exactly as it was designed to.We exist within a nation of laws, where people are convicted on evidence and fact,not swayed emotion and feelings (Well,theoretically,at least). Our justice system is designed so that it's better than 100 guilty men walk than one innocent be imprisoned.It's based on proving to a jury of their peers,beyond a reasonable doubt, that a crime was committed.
That's precisely what happened her.Our system worked fine, did what it was designed from day one to do. It was patently obvious to even a blind squirelll at least a year ago that,barring the introduction of new evidence, the state was going to find it almost impossible to surmount the reasonable doubt requirement.Hence, my initial comments and interest in this case.
Nothing new came to light.What did was often in Z's favor,not the prosecutions.
This verdict was easy to foresee,entirely predictable,and,hate to tell you,but from a legal perspective, entirely just.



tazzygirl -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 7:32:07 AM)

quote:

1-This wasn't about race. The only ones who made it about race were the media and politicians. In other words, racists taking advantage of a tragedy to advance personal agendas,most re gun control,SYG and race.


Im not so sure about it not being about race. Dont get me wrong, I dont think Z decided to do what he did simply because T was black. I do have to wonder about how the police treated this case initially though.



Kana -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 7:44:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

1-This wasn't about race. The only ones who made it about race were the media and politicians. In other words, racists taking advantage of a tragedy to advance personal agendas,most re gun control,SYG and race.


Im not so sure about it not being about race. Dont get me wrong, I dont think Z decided to do what he did simply because T was black. I do have to wonder about how the police treated this case initially though.

What?They investigated.They did not find proof that a crime had been committed.Thus, they didn't charge. A decision that,now that we've squandered millions on a trial,looks wise in hindsight and was vindicated by a jury.

Did they make mistakes?
Sure. But that happens on every case. No crime work is 100% perfect.In this case, the CSI people really shouldn't have wrapped the body in plastic, that violates crime scene protocols 101 (Ruins any DNA,skin scrapings etc...because it traps the moisture within the plastic,compromising everything).But other than that,their fieldwork was fine.
I'd say it was a whole helluva lot more racist for the city council to be breathing down the cops backs forcing them to lay bad charges on Z than anything Z may have done.

And let's not forget whose racists comments made the trial.From what we know,the most racist person in this whole deal was TM.

ETA-It's funny watching the racists move the goalposts.First it was that Z was racist. Once it was repeatedly proven he's a latin (Possibly with black roots),now it's not Z that's the racist,it's the system. What's the next line of defense-it's Obama who's the racist? Or maybe Holder...



mnottertail -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 7:46:34 AM)

Yeah, I think that the Marrissa Alexander conviction would not bear those views out.



tazzygirl -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 7:49:05 AM)

According to someone who was just on CNN, all that is needed to prove a federal case for a hate crime is that it was a racially motivated violence. I just dont see them proving that against Z.

Did they make mistakes?
Sure. But that happens on every case. No crime work is 100% perfect.In this case, the CSI people really shouldn't have wrapped the body in plastic, that violates crime scene protocols 101 (Ruins any DNA,skin scrapings etc...because it traps the moisture within the plastic,compromising everything).But other than that,their fieldwork was fine.
I'd say it was a whole helluva lot more racist for the city council to be breathing down the cops backs forcing them to lay bad charges on Z than anything Z may have done.

And yet its those mistakes that may have made the difference in a case. Had blood been found on T's hands that belonged to Z, as it surely should have had T actually tried to smother Z in the way Z stated, after the broken nose, then much of the anger would be a moot point.

I dont think I am so far wrong to question how they processed the scene and if it was because it was a "young black male".



Kana -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 7:57:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yeah, I think that the Marrissa Alexander conviction would not bear those views out.

No idea what you're talking bout here Ron.I'm focusing my comments on one case that I know something about,not trying to expand this outwards.
Were I too,I would have no room to talk,or opinion to offer,simply because I know nothing of the background, have no facts,and zip to base an opinion on. Any comments I made would be a disservice,to everyone here,and me.

I really started watching this one closely because it was fascinating watching a lynch mob swirl,seeing the media and race baiters ratchet up the shitstorm,and mostly because after a quick review of the facts,my judgement was that there was no case and that Z would walk.
I could care less re Z,or M,for that matter.What I did,and do, care about was watching the legal system ethics crumble in light of the massive media campaign being waged against it.In many ways,this case reminds me of the Duke lacrosse casein the way the politicians and media reacted. I care about watching the system use it's massive resources to try and crucify one person. I care about abuse of prosecutorial power (As should we all. It's all fun and games until it's you in the docket getting railroaded).I watched because this was "Law and Order"justice-the prosecution resorting to any means necessary to advance their agenda and the one driven by their political masters.I care about the abuse of political process,the derailment of blind justice to media race baiting and watching the way the state misuses it's immense power against the individual.



mnottertail -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 7:59:22 AM)

A black woman in Florida last year sent down for attempted murder for firing warning shots.

I don't understand how one goes one way, and one the other.



tj444 -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 8:03:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

1-This wasn't about race. The only ones who made it about race were the media and politicians. In other words, racists taking advantage of a tragedy to advance personal agendas,most re gun control,SYG and race.


Im not so sure about it not being about race. Dont get me wrong, I dont think Z decided to do what he did simply because T was black. I do have to wonder about how the police treated this case initially though.

What?They investigated.They did not find proof that a crime had been committed.Thus, they didn't charge. A decision that,now that we've squandered millions on a trial,looks wise in hindsight and was vindicated by a jury.

Did they make mistakes?
Sure. But that happens on every case. No crime work is 100% perfect.In this case, the CSI people really shouldn't have wrapped the body in plastic, that violates crime scene protocols 101 (Ruins any DNA,skin scrapings etc...because it traps the moisture within the plastic,compromising everything).But other than that,their fieldwork was fine.
I'd say it was a whole helluva lot more racist for the city council to be breathing down the cops backs forcing them to lay bad charges on Z than anything Z may have done.


If it had not been made into a race thing initially, the parents would not have gotten a trial to find out what happened.. I did say in an earlier post, i dont think there should be trials if there isnt enough evidence.. anyone who has lost a loved one wants to find out what really happened but most dont unless it does go to trial.. While Martins family got their trial, it has come at a great cost, imo, finacially as well as the reputation of "Justice" (not that it wasnt severly tarnished already), and its divided the country..

I do think that the cops were sloppy with Zimmy (no testing for alcohol or drugs, etc, etc), yes they did gather evidence, took statements.. but when I watched Serino interview Zimmy, it was like he was coaching Zimmy and putting the story into a context so Zimmy would not be charged & skate.. it was like lets get this case wrapped up with a bow on it and file it away.. Yes, I know cops are overworked, and things slip by them due to that.. but when a family presses and uses the means they can to get answers, this is the result..

Now I read that Zimmy wants to go to law school and considering he's not the sharpest pencil in the box (I am being polite).. that is a truly fn scary thing, imo, just what the world needs, another crummy lawyer.. [:'(]



farglebargle -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 8:04:08 AM)

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/07/15/202049199/What-Did-You-Tell-Your-Kids-After-The-Zimmerman-Acquittal

quote:



The Talk is something that this black father has been having with his now 24 year old son, since he was born. It's sad that we have to have The Talk but it could potentially be tragic not to have it. Situations like the Trayvon Martin trial and the upcoming trial for Jordan Davis are real life examples I show my son, of how the fears of some white people can be placed on him and cost him his life.



farglebargle -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 8:05:30 AM)

quote:

1-This wasn't about race.


So, if Trayvon Martin was a White Woman, there would have been the same outcome?



Kana -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 8:10:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

According to someone who was just on CNN, all that is needed to prove a federal case for a hate crime is that it was a racially motivated violence. I just dont see them proving that against Z.

Did they make mistakes?
Sure. But that happens on every case. No crime work is 100% perfect.In this case, the CSI people really shouldn't have wrapped the body in plastic, that violates crime scene protocols 101 (Ruins any DNA,skin scrapings etc...because it traps the moisture within the plastic,compromising everything).But other than that,their fieldwork was fine.
I'd say it was a whole helluva lot more racist for the city council to be breathing down the cops backs forcing them to lay bad charges on Z than anything Z may have done.

And yet its those mistakes that may have made the difference in a case. Had blood been found on T's hands that belonged to Z, as it surely should have had T actually tried to smother Z in the way Z stated, after the broken nose, then much of the anger would be a moot point.

I dont think I am so far wrong to question how they processed the scene and if it was because it was a "young black male".


I do.I find it massively insulting to the professionalism of the police/CSI people to presume that because the victim was black,that they did a poor job intentionally.
I think that the idea that most cops would waste their career, throw away a pension,risk imprisonment,not to mention the damage to reputation and family, as well as possible civil repercussions,to try and not do a good job on a case because the color of the victim is ludicrous.Especially in light of the fact that,well,most murder victims in this country are black.In Baltimore as of last week, we've had 126 murders. 118 black, 7white, 1 Latin.In other words,all CSI techs do is process black bodies.They have standards of professionalism.They have a code and ethics they've sworn to support. To imply that they intentionally choose not to do a proper job because the victim was black is to do them a callous injustice.Especially since you have not a single fact to base that accusation on, and it's a damn ugly implication at that.


Here's the fact-Crime scenes are fragile, transient, temporary things.Since Cain first put a cap in Abel,ain't one crime scene ever been worked 100%.Something is always missed.There could always be more time to investigate.There could always e something photographed that wasn't. Like everything else in life,CSI techs make calls of judgement, trying to find that balance between quality and quantity,the time needed and available resources.
Did they screw the pooch on the plastic?
Absofuckinglutely
Did they do it out of malice or racism?Almost 100% no.
Is the tech getting reamed by their captain, forever working night shift pulling bodies from fires and the water (The worst types of decomposition)?
Almost certainly.But to imply that any errors made were done out of racism-that's flipping wrong unless you have some evidence to back the assertion.
And frankly,I think it's ugly and incorrect to imply such an ugly thing.

As for the federal case-that's gonna be difficult seeing how the FBI already looked the case over and found no racial overtones.What is Holder going to do?Override his own agency to push the case?
Yeah,that'll look real good when the Feebs are on the stand, testifying against their own government.
You know,kinda like all the prosecutions witnesses in this case too :;-)



MasterCaneman -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 8:18:09 AM)

I believe the only reason the Feds are going to push a civil-rights case is to assuage the black community. Nothing more, nothing less, and irregardless of whether or not there really is a case. Like just about everything else about this, it's all smoke and mirrors to placate a population. While I am no fan of Obama, in this case I think he's made the correct call in pushing this. If a civil-rights case is found lacking by a black AG directed to do so by a black President, it will go far in keeping the chance of riots down.



Kana -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 8:18:15 AM)

quote:

If it had not been made into a race thing initially, the parents would not have gotten a trial to find out what happened.. I did say in an earlier post, i dont think there should be trials if there isnt enough evidence.. anyone who has lost a loved one wants to find out what really happened but most dont unless it does go to trial.. While Martins family got their trial, it has come at a great cost, imo, finacially as well as the reputation of "Justice" (not that it wasnt severly tarnished already), and its divided the country..


1-There should never have been a trial.The cops called this one right from the start.
2-The parents knew what happened.There was a police report.
3-You are right that Martins lawyer made it into a race case (Which again,why should it be.Its a latin attacking a black-how did whites get drawn into this morass?),and it did come at great cost-the over 1 million dollar settlement that the HOA gave (And,oooooh,I bet they regret settling now),of which the lawyers will get what,somewhere between 40-60%.

Which is what this whole thing REALLY was about.
Gotta get paid.


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

1-This wasn't about race.


So, if Trayvon Martin was a White Woman, there would have been the same outcome?


If she's assaulted him without legal provocation-I sure hope so. And I'd be taking the same tack.



Kana -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 8:23:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

I believe the only reason the Feds are going to push a civil-rights case is to assuage the black community. Nothing more, nothing less, and irregardless of whether or not there really is a case. Like just about everything else about this, it's all smoke and mirrors to placate a population. While I am no fan of Obama, in this case I think he's made the correct call in pushing this. If a civil-rights case is found lacking by a black AG directed to do so by a black President, it will go far in keeping the chance of riots down.

And you find it acceptable for the federales to use their massive powers to do this?For the entire power of a nation state to come down on one man because a politician "wants to placate a population?"
That's not a nation of law.That's knee jerk, reactionary, wag the dog,mob rule.
And frightening as hell.
That scares me far far more than 100,000 heavily armed Zimmerman's.As it should us all.
Fuck due process.Fuck double jeopardy.We're just going to keep coming at you through a million different federal agencies until you are too broke to fight or to exhausted to go on.
That's100% BS.And exactly what our nation was founded against.
Police states-they're scary places folks. And the road to hell, she be paved with good intentions.



tazzygirl -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 8:24:26 AM)

quote:

I do.I find it massively insulting to the professionalism of the police/CSI people to presume that because the victim was black,that they did a poor job intentionally.
I think that the idea that most cops would waste their career, throw away a pension,risk imprisonment,not to mention the damage to reputation and family, as well as possible civil repercussions,to try and not do a good job on a case because the color of the victim is ludicrous.Especially in light of the fact that,well,most murder victims in this country are black.In Baltimore as of last week, we've had 126 murders. 118 black, 7white, 1 Latin.In other words,all CSI techs do is process black bodies.They have standards of professionalism.They have a code and ethics they've sworn to support. To imply that they intentionally choose not to do a proper job because the victim was black is to do them a callous injustice.Especially since you have not a single fact to base that accusation on, and it's a damn ugly implication at that.


I dont care if you find it massively insulting. I have posted proof that it DOES happen earlier in this thread. 16 officers in one department did just that... "wasted their career, throw away a pension,risk imprisonment,not to mention the damage to reputation and family, as well as possible civil repercussions,to try and not do a good job on a case because the color of the victim is ludicrous" I find it massively insulting that you believe simply because they are law enforcement officers that they are above the "pale" and shouldnt be questioned.

And you can find it ludicrous all you want... I happen to know it happens that law enforcement can be criminal, they can be fucking lazy, and they can certainly not give a damn about people.



BamaD -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 8:26:30 AM)

Another narrow minded response as expected.
I do not hold ill will toward "minorities"
I went to a black University which was and still is under court sanctions for creating a hostile environment for white people.
Got along fine there with a couple of exceptions.
Professors who, at least early, would refuse to call on white students.
Students who would make highly biased comments not realizing they weren't given facts.
Students who threatened me with violence because I didn't agree that all cops were vicious monsters even though I agreed that some were.
I was married to a black woman.
She btw said she saw more racism in one weekend in Detroit than 40 years in the South.
I have no problem with the fact that some like you will disagree, that is your right.
But it is you, and not me who assume bigotry and stupidity on the part of those who don't tow your line.
Your accusation that I want to silence those I disagree with is clearly either projection (you know projecting your attitudes onto others) or a defense mechanism (everyone else plays it this way so I have to)
I also have the right to point out a bigot when I see one.



tazzygirl -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 8:28:36 AM)

quote:

She btw said she saw more racism in one weekend in Detroit than 40 years in the South.


There isnt more... its just not polite to discuss it in the South in public.



BamaD -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 8:28:49 AM)

It is a tragedy unrelated to Lib Con positions.



BamaD -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 8:32:51 AM)

Sharpton incited a riot in NYC which burned out a Jewish business for being in a black neighborhood,  black security guard was killed.

Conner unleashed the dogs and used the fire hoses in direct violation of Wallace's directives (not cause Wallace was such a humanitarian but because he was aware of the backlash) 



MasterCaneman -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/15/2013 8:34:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

And you find it acceptable for the federales to use their massive powers to do this?For the entire power of a nation state to come down on one man because a politician "wants to placate a population?"
That's not a nation of law.That's knee jerk, reactionary, wag the dog,mob rule.
And frightening as hell.
That scares me far far more than 100,000 heavily armed Zimmerman's.As it should us all.
Fuck due process.Fuck double jeopardy.We're just going to keep coming at you through a million different federal agencies until you are too broke to fight or to exhausted to go on.
That's100% BS.And exactly what our nation was founded against.
Police states-they're scary places folks. And the road to hell, she be paved with good intentions.


I find it understandable, not acceptable. As I said, it is only being done to keep a certain subset of the population happy, nothing more or less. And it should frighten you-we are well on our way to becoming a police state. In fact, we are almost there now.



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