RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN

RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (Full Version)

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Kana -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 8:19:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn If you read the police record concerning GZ, and read the logs of his 46 calls to the police, and still think that this is someone we want to have as implementing "justice" in our society, then the fact that you concur with this explains a f*ck of a lot about what's seriously wrong with this society. I never said I concur.You're putting words in my mouth. I said I saw no way any jury could find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.In fact, I think my exacts words were something like, "A second year law student could try this case. If a real lawyer tries it and can't raise reasonable doubt, they should be disbarred for incompetence." It was open and shut. That ain't just my opinion.Di Maio, a defense witness with all the reasons in the world to spend lots of time investigating,billed Z's team only $2,400, six hours at $400 per. When the prosecution asked him why so little time,he said that forensically it was a simple straightforward case. Most importantly, there was no evidence or substantial eyewitness to disprove Z's version of events. That was the critical thing. There was enough reasonable doubt to drive a squadron of Panzer tanks through. And again, don't you think that if Z were that dangerous, the Feds report would have mentioned that little tidbit somewhere. Or are you suggesting that Obama and Holder conspired to withhold evidence that may have implicated Z? Please tell me so, because that would simply be too juicy for words... "Blah blah, blah blah, etc. ...." Thanks for pounding your emphasis at every opportunity that you are incapable of understanding the distinction or difference between the law and actual justice. I kinda think you're type of justice might involve mobs with torches and pitchforks. You want justice? Make it with blood, sweat, sacrifice and toil. You know, that old, "The tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of patriots and tyrants alike from time to time stuff." But don't walk into criminal court and expect it. Not in this country. To do anything less is painfully naive. And really, we don't know what justice is in this case.Yes, it's possible that Z stalked M after profiling him as the black man he wanted to kill that night. It's also possible, and supported by the available evidence, that Z was an innocent man attempting to save himself from an assault, making a snap decision while having his head pounded on the pavement by a racist thug. We don't know. And we'll never know. What is fact is that we live in a country where the cornerstone of our justice system is that it's better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent suffer in jail. The reason for that is that the men who founded this country were painfully aware of the oppressive possibilities of an overzealous politically motivated justice system. They created the laws the way they did to save us from each other...and from the tyranny of government. They were afraid of scenarios such as this. They were terrified of the misuse of the police powers of the state. And the system worked as intended. You gotta problem with that, change the system. You'll get no arguments from me-to these eyes,most of our democratic institutions are painfully and hopelessly broken.

Powergamz1 -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 8:20:06 PM)
Good question... what would have been 'actual justice'? Finding Zimmerman and killing him before the trial? The jury ignoring their oath and voting on emotion? quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn Thanks for pounding your emphasis at every opportunity that you are incapable of understanding the distinction or difference between the law and actual justice. You've brought it up. So explain it. What IS the difference? I believe we all agree on what the law is - what is "actual justice"?

Phydeaux -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 8:20:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBBTBW The sad thing about this and the racial tension it has caused is that, IF this was a kid of ANY race that he killed, people would still be up in arms. However, because it was a black kid, black people automatically become the enemy because we are angry that a killer got off. Regardless of the reasons Mr. Zimmerman gave for killing Mr. Martin, Mr. Zimmerman caused the altercation by not doing what he was told by the 911 operator and taking matters into his own hands. Putting race and motive aside it seems very few people are considering that maybe Mr. Martin felt threatened because he was being followed in the dark. Fortunately or unfortunately he wasn't armed and couldn't effectively protect himself from a vigilante with a gun. See, your words speak to the huge divide here between white and black attitudes. I wouldn't protest if it had been a white kid. I wouldn't even have read the news story. I wouldn't have questioned the law, the police. It was clear to me that it was reasonable doubt from the beginning. Again, you assert that zimmerman was a vigilante, when the evidence says he was not. And you should be very careful to wish for a civil trial, or a hate crime trial. Because the evidence is the same. Zimmerman is innocent, at least to the blind eye of the law. And travon's reputation will be dragged through the mud.

Phydeaux -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 8:24:14 PM)
quote: And really, we don't know what justice is in this case.Yes, it's possible that Z stalked M after profiling him as the black man he wanted to kill that night. It's also possible, and supported by the available evidence, that Z was an innocent man attempting to save himself from an assault, making a snap decision while having his head pounded on the pavement by a racist thug. We don't know. And we'll never know. What is fact is that we live in a country where the cornerstone of our justice system is that it's better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent suffer in jail. The reason for that is that the men who founded this country were painfully aware of the oppressive possibilities of an overzealous politically motivated justice system. They created the laws the way they did to save us from each other...and from the tyranny of government. Here here. If you want a peaceful and just society - go and do charity work. Oppose tyranny, bigotry, hate wherever it is found. Be colorblind.

Edwynn -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 8:31:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Justice is not the same as law. Thank you. Finally, someone else understands. That's the point I have been making this whole time. quote: The law has a lot less to do with justice than you think it does. OK, I take that back, you are actually clueless, and lack comprehension skills, but carry on.

tazzygirl -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 8:37:46 PM)
[image]http://i6.ifrm.com/10237/84/emo/BowArrow.gif[/image]

tazzygirl -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 8:44:39 PM)
~FR Ya know... I like these definitions.... Law - A guideline that applies to everyone under it no matter which race, religion or troubles you have. Justice - A decision based on all the facts not just a guideline created to cover everything. This doesnt bode well for Zimmerman, I fear.

Phydeaux -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 8:45:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Justice is not the same as law. Thank you. Finally, someone else understands. That's the point I have been making this whole time. quote: The law has a lot less to do with justice than you think it does. OK, I take that back, you are actually clueless, and lack comprehension skills, but carry on. Edwyn I stand by my comment. I understand that you have been saying there was no justice in this decision. The reason I made my comment is that you are suffering under the illusion that there could be. The very word justice is subjective. It means that things will get arranged so that what should happen - does happen. But what that is - depends on the person that thinks it. Your idea of justice is different than the KKK's idea of justice. The law, on the other hand is objective, to the extent that any human endeavor can be. Is it proved that the defendent did X,Y, or Z. If so, these are the penalties. That is ALL the law can ever do. Your idea of Justice says Zimmerman should pay. But the law says - there is nothing I can do -there is no evidence he broke the law.

Edwynn -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 8:59:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn If you read the police record concerning GZ, and read the logs of his 46 calls to the police, and still think that this is someone we want to have as implementing "justice" in our society, then the fact that you concur with this explains a fck of a lot about what's seriously wrong with this society. I never said I concur.You're putting words in my mouth. I said I saw no way any jury could find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.In fact, I think my exacts words were something like, "A second year law student could try this case. If a real lawyer tries it and can't raise reasonable doubt, they should be disbarred for incompetence." It was open and shut. That ain't just my opinion.Di Maio, a defense witness with all the reasons in the world to spend lots of time investigating,billed Z's team only $2,400, six hours at $400 per. When the prosecution asked him why so little time,he said that forensically it was a simple straightforward case. Most importantly, there was no evidence or substantial eyewitness to disprove Z's version of events. That was the critical thing. There was enough reasonable doubt to drive a squadron of Panzer tanks through. And again, don't you think that if Z were that dangerous, the Feds report would have mentioned that little tidbit somewhere. Or are you suggesting that Obama and Holder conspired to withhold evidence that may have implicated Z? Please tell me so, because that would simply be too juicy for words... "Blah blah, blah blah, etc. ...." Thanks for pounding your emphasis at every opportunity that you are incapable of understanding the distinction or difference between the law and actual justice. quote:* I kinda think you're type of justice might involve mobs with torches and pitchforks. That's all you, bud. If that's what you go to sleep with at night, then that's you, not me. quote: And really, we don't know what justice is in this case.Yes, it's possible that Z stalked M after profiling him as the black man he wanted to kill that night. It's also possible, and supported by the available evidence, that Z was an innocent man attempting to save himself from an assault, making a snap decision while having his head pounded on the pavement by a racist thug. We don't know. And we'll never know. What we know, or at least the sane among us know, is that 'don't pursue' means don't pursue, however politely worded, when 'suggested' from one who is a direct representative of law enforcement to a person with a record of hostility who only can imagine himself as such. quote: What is fact is that we live in a country where the cornerstone of our justice system is that it's better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent suffer in jail. The reason for that is that the men who founded this country were painfully aware of the oppressive possibilities of an overzealous politically motivated justice system. They created the laws the way they did to save us from each other...and from the tyranny of government. I'm with you on that, being saved from the tyranny of government, and snap judgement of government agents, and all that. But you argue that we should not be saved from self identified, non-democratic ideas of justice or snap judgement implementation of 'his own idea of justice' nutjobs like Zimmerman. I think you're floundering here. Did the jury convict Martin, here? No they didn't. But Zimmerman convicted and executed Martin. And you're OK with that. I think that this whole episode has drawn nutjobs of every stripe out of the woodwork. Your subsequent babbling just repeats the mantra of same.

Edwynn -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 9:14:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Justice is not the same as law. Thank you. Finally, someone else understands. That's the point I have been making this whole time. quote: The law has a lot less to do with justice than you think it does. OK, I take that back, you are actually clueless, and lack comprehension skills, but carry on. quote: Edwyn I stand by my comment. I understand that you have been saying there was no justice in this decision. The reason I made my comment is that you are suffering under the illusion that there could be. The very word justice is subjective. It means that things will get arranged so that what should happen - does happen. But what that is - depends on the person that thinks it. Your idea of justice is different than the KKK's idea of justice. The law, on the other hand is objective, to the extent that any human endeavor can be. Is it proved that the defendent did X,Y, or Z. If so, these are the penalties. That is ALL the law can ever do. Your idea of Justice says Zimmerman should pay. But the law says - there is nothing I can do -there is no evidence he broke the law. No, No, and again, No. My 'idea' of justice says that some nutjob should not be allowed, in any civilized society, to take it upon himself to implement justice by his own individual estimation. After this, who in the f*ck needs police anymore? Or courts? It's obvious from this that we can get by on the cheap from an assortment of nut cases for the task. What's being argued here is what constitutes justice, and who is to administer it. I don't care about the verdict, on its own, other than what it says about the society that conjures such laws as to force the jury to this verdict.

DomKen -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 9:15:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Ah .. we've now located the entire source of the problem. You don't understand what 'evidence' means. Zimmerman breathing heavy might be evidence of being out of shape - but it is conjecture (guessing, wild-assed speculation) to call it pursuit. Zimmerman admitted to pursuing Martin on the call to the police. He also admitted after he killed Martin that he didn't stop when the dispatcher told him to. A following not pursuing B if Zimmerman should have ignored police advice to carry a gun as you said how does ignoring advice not to follow make him a murderer? Uh Duh: Because 1. Following is not murdering. They have two different definitions. Look them up if unclear. Zimmerman had a right to be there, just as M did. 2a. The dispcher didn't tell him to stop FOLLOWING M; he said "we don't need you to do that". 3. By parsing your words, you are trying to suggest that Zimmerman stalked Martin and then shot him. There is no evidence to support that. None. 4. The correct line of events is 4a. Zimmerman calls in martin. 4b. At some point Zimmerman 'loses' martin; and the police dispatcher tells him we don't need you to follow him. Zimmerman says "OK" and heads back to his truck. 4c. The alteration occurs. This is what the preponderance of the evidence suggest, as confirmed by the jury verdict. 5. Self Defense. By definition its not murder. 6. Reasonable doubt. Even if what you said were true, the prosecutor has to be able to prove it. He came nowhere near that standard. Anyone remember Bernie Goetz? Zimmerman did not go back to his truck. There is simply no way he would have been where the fight occurred if he headed back to his truck when the call to the police ended 2 minutes prior to the start of the fight.

Phydeaux -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 9:22:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Zimmerman did not go back to his truck. There is simply no way he would have been where the fight occurred if he headed back to his truck when the call to the police ended 2 minutes prior to the start of the fight. Nor did I said he had. The evidence that was presented (Serino, 13 yr witness, and others) said that he was headed back to his truck - not that he got there. Look man - present ANY evidence that zimmerman jumped martin. There simply ISN'T any.

Phydeaux -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 9:29:33 PM)
quote: No, No, and again, No. My 'idea' of justice says that some nutjob should not take it upon himself to implement what society that he is allowed to live in has determined what constitutes justice. After this, who in the fck needs police anymore? It's obvious from this that we can get by on the cheap from an assortment of nut cases for the task. What's being argued here is what constitutes justice, and who is to administer it. I don't care about the verdict, on its own, other than what it says about the society that conjures such laws as to force the jury to this verdict. Edwynn - there is no such thing as absolute justice. Do you think your idea of justice is the same as a KKK members? Do you think that whites should pay for what blacks have endured as a legacy of slavery? Do you think palestinians should have the West Bank. What about Jerusalem as a capitol. Should abortion be murder? I commend you - that you have a strong hunger for justice - but there is no way to know what perfect justice is in this world. We are not mind readers. We do not have the ability to do the impossible. The problem with your definition of justice "says that some nutjob should not take it upon himself to implement what society that he is allowed to live in has determined what constitutes justice."* is again that it is all speculation. There is no evidence that Z was a nutjob. No evidence that he chose to execute Martin. So no - our society doens't say vigilante justice is ok. But in order for there to be VIGILANTE justice - you have to prove it. AND THEY DIDNT. I tell you what. As a thought experiment - why don't you tell me what you think the law should be. Be specific. And I'll create a scenario that shows you how your law leads to injustice.

cloudboy -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 9:32:04 PM)
One moral of this story is you can end a fist-fight or wrestling match against an unarmed opponent with a handgun and walk away scott-free to cheers from Fox News. I think David Simon was more upset with the verdict than DomKen. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Cool heads with sound views are very much appreciated.

tazzygirl -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 9:38:00 PM)
What is the expression... "live by the sword, die by the sword"

Marini -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 9:42:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy One moral of this story is you can end a fist-fight or wrestling match against an unarmed opponent with a handgun and walk away scott-free to cheers from Fox News. I think David Simon was more upset with the verdict than DomKen. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Cool heads with sound views are very much appreciated. [sm=applause.gif] Thank you, counselor.

Edwynn -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 9:42:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana I kinda think you're [sic] type of justice might involve mobs with torches and pitchforks I kinda think that you're a complete fuckwit in saying that, actually. (fuckwit grammar aside)

Powergamz1 -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 9:47:06 PM)
David Simon? The vulture that suggested it would be acceptable for people to pick up a brick? So that he could make even more money off of other people's misery? Yeah, real 'cool'.... not. [8\|] quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy One moral of this story is you can end a fist-fight or wrestling match against an unarmed opponent with a handgun and walk away scott-free to cheers from Fox News. I think David Simon was more upset with the verdict than DomKen. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Cool heads with sound views are very much appreciated.

Edwynn -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 10:06:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Edwynn - there is no such thing as absolute justice. You are welcome to copy/paste where I ever said that. quote: Do you think your idea of justice is the same as a KKK members? I never said or even hinted that, either. But its obvious from this that your and Zimmerman's idea of justice are seemingly congruent. Thanks for that affirmation. quote: I commend you - that you have a strong hunger for justice ... It's not so much that I have a 'strong hunger for justice' as that I have a strong repugnance for abject stupidity. Let's be clear on that. quote: The problem with your definition of justice I never claimed, in any of this discussion, any 'definition' of justice. How about you get back to the discussion when you are sober?

tazzygirl -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/16/2013 10:12:37 PM)
~FR David Simon's Blog regarding the Trayvon and the Verdict You can stand your ground if you’re white, and you can use a gun to do it. But if you stand your ground with your fists and you’re black, you’re dead. In the state of Florida, the season on African-Americans now runs year round. Come one, come all. And bring a handgun. The legislators are fine with this blood on their hands. The governor, too. One man accosted another and when it became a fist fight, one man — and one man only — had a firearm. The rest is racial rationalization and dishonorable commentary. If I were a person of color in Florida, I would pick up a brick and start walking toward that courthouse in Sanford. Those that do not, those that hold the pain and betrayal inside and somehow manage to resist violence — these citizens are testament to a stoic tolerance that is more than the rest of us deserve. I confess, their patience and patriotism is well beyond my own. Behold, the lewd, pornographic embrace of two great American pathologies: Race and guns, both of which have conspired not only to take the life of a teenager, but to make that killing entirely permissible. I can’t look an African-American parent in the eye for thinking about what they must tell their sons about what can happen to them on the streets of their country. Tonight, anyone who truly understands what justice is and what it requires of a society is ashamed to call himself an American.

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