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RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 2:31:00 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I believe corporal punishment is only proper for forming acceptable social behavior in children. Not for adults that can be reasoned with or incarcerated.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to SunTzuSwe)

Post #: 21

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 2:38:21 PM

SwitchNSpanky

Posts: 418
Joined: 5/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I believe corporal punishment is only proper for forming acceptable social behavior in children. Not for adults that can be reasoned with or incarcerated.

Butch

I totally get your point. I was raised similar. But, in my view. Spanking is for fun with the wife not to punish kids. I'd feel all sorts of creepy spanking my kid. This may be because I spanked chicks before spanking my progeny. It could be a me thing. But, regardless. I don't spank kids. I spank their mom instead.

_____________________________

I am a lover AND a fighter...

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 22

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 2:54:06 PM

epiphiny43

Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline

EVERY informed professional in modern Psychology or Behavior Modification just got another stomach ache at the failure of years of indisputable experimentation to penetrate the minds of the general public. If you actually care to know how brains acquire useful knowledge and how children actually learn social behavior: Applied Behavior Analysis. Google if it's unfamiliar. (Cliff's Note version: Nervous systems in reasonable working order repeat successful actions. The system defines 'successful', not the observers.)
Recent studies show children of the ages most likely to be whipped or spanked do NOT learn from failure or pain, (or no one would ever learn to walk, or speak English) but from SUCCESS. Break point seems about 9? Watch a kid learn to ride a bike. It's the success and balance that they take away, not that riding a bike causes skinned knees and bruises. They learn Despite negative results, not because of them. Every serious study shows lifetime deficits and problems in children from early corporal punishment. Usually in proportion to the violence but hardly a constant relation. Some kids survive Hell remarkably intact, others are damaged by only a few or single spanking.
Few cultures in history before Western Urban cultures actually beat their own children. Many still don't. Only Enlightened Christians seem to feel whacking kids improves them? The greatest cognitive dissonance pre-Contact Hawaiians often experienced when Westerners came to the Islands was the first time they ever saw a child struck or beaten. Totally unimaginable to their 'savage' culture before the Missionaries came. The Christian locals are pretty violent in the families now. Maybe it's that damn 'old time religion' about the Angry Desert God? Jesus didn't seem all that big on beating anyone.

< Message edited by epiphiny43 -- 7/19/2013 2:57:24 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 23

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 3:12:36 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

I don't punish at all. My gig goes something like this. I'm leading somewhere. Carol follows or not as she sees fit. I honestly don't have the time or patience to be playing sheepdog with wandering pack members. You want to be in my pack? Neat.. then do so. If you don't then go do your own thing.

Punishment works for some folks and I always approve of that which works. I just don't see the point between Carol and I. And honestly, Carol really wants to obey in a deeply visceral and automatic way. If we're not on the same page it's pretty much guaranteed that I'm doing something wrong.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to SunTzuSwe)

Post #: 24

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 3:31:46 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Punishment is a beloved tool of weak dominants and is the LEAST effective way of changing behavior and only when used by someone who understands Pavlov and Skinner at the bare minimum. Most "punishment" in the bdsm world is ineffective and often counterproductive and is the tool of insecure and cowardly dominants.

Understanding, praise, and positive reinforcement have a far greater use in changing the behavior of humans.
Anger isn't a primary emotion, it stems from something else. When a child lashes out in anger we call it a tantrum...you can put a bow on it when an adult does it but it comes from the very same place.

So what you have in effect is someone who is angry over some action/behavior (because of some unrelated issue) and isn't acting from a place of self control or self awareness and is using a weak method of behavior modification on something that isn't even the cause of the anger. The anger flows from some past internal issue of the top/dom/master that they have failed to do with.

So that is why people who have punishment as a core tenant in their relationship tend to quickly get dismissed by me.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 25

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 3:36:21 PM

leonine

Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SwitchNSpanky

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Yes, I will. However, it comes with the caveat that, if we've come to that point, it signifies that whatever the punishment is about is so bad that both parties need to do some soul searching about whether the dynamic is viable or the conflict over subject X is enough of an incompatibility that the dynamic can not be salvaged. If I have to punish repeatedly for subject X, the latter of those is more likely the outcome.

This makes sense to me. In one relationship it was part of our process. It said "I'm sorry and I forgive you in a very tangible way. It kinds squashed and lingering resentment or Shame and allowed for a clean start. Was pretty damn healing for us both.

Much the same here. When I owned a full time slave she was so devoted to service that knowing she'd done wrong hurt her worse than anything I could do. The purpose of a punishment beating (which had a completely different dynamic from the - much worse! - ones I gave her for fun) was closure, to tell her she'd paid for her fault, forgiven, forgotten, move on.

_____________________________

Leo9

Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to SwitchNSpanky)

Post #: 26

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 3:41:26 PM

Kana

Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SunTzuSwe

Instead of going OT in another thread I'll start this one.
How many of you activly use spanking/caning/whipping/paddling/... as punishment? We're not talking erotic play punishments now, serious punishment to correct bad behaviour.

My own experience is that it rarely brings anything positive to the table. I'll spank my slave if I feel like it, no need for any reason in particular.

I do occasionally.
Usually I make do with a raised eyebrow, a comment, certain tone of voice. But from time to time, if the transgression is sufficient to warrant more...

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"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to SunTzuSwe)

Post #: 27

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 3:46:49 PM

LittleGirlHeart

Posts: 1427
Joined: 4/4/2013
Status: offline

Nope. I refuse to agree to corporal punishment on the occasions i have a punishment dynamic.

_____________________________

We'll fight, not out of spite
For someone must stand up for what's right
'Cause where there's a man who has no voice
There ours shall go singing

(in reply to SwitchNSpanky)

Post #: 28

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 3:49:41 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

He gave me a pro forma, four little swats once in the beginning to help me release guilt. It wasn't meant as behavior modification because punishment doesn't work for that. Positive reinforcement works far better.

As far as raising minors, if you teach kids that no one has the right to inflict unwanted touch on their body, yet you inflict unwanted touch on their bodies, you raise the risk of them being abused. Because no matter what you said, what you did made it clear that adults can do whatever they want without any recourse. Sure you really want them to take that lesson away?

Beyond that, for us it's erotic. If one day it was real, anger driven, then I'm not going to switch back to it being fun and hot in the future. So why would he want to turn it from something that makes me giggle and wet into something that makes me scared and closed off and totally uninterested in sex?

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to Kana)

Post #: 29

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 6:22:26 PM

evesgrden

Posts: 597
Joined: 6/9/2012
Status: offline

quote:

EVERY informed professional in modern Psychology or Behavior Modification just got another stomach ache at

Your post.

Sorry poppit, but you're wrong about ABA.

Look.. punishment decreasess the probability of a behavior's occurrance, and reinforcers strengthen the probability of a behavior's recurrance. That's it.

Punishment is the application of an aversive stimulus contingent upon a target behavior's occurance.
Aversive... is idiosyncratic. It can be pain. It can a social reprimand, e.g. Kana's raised eyebrow, it can my "please don't do that again". But something is only punishment if the frequency and/or intensity of the target behavior decreases. A sharp "NO" can be far more aversive than a swat on the but.. to slave or to a 2 year old.

Is corporal punishment effective in decreasing problem behaviors? Yes. But we don't teach parents to do that, and there's a whole ethical can of worms inherent in that. There are other ways. I don't need to hit my dog to teach right from wrong so I sure as hell don't need to hit a kid. But yes I can most assuredly state that corporal punishment works, and in and of itself it is not evil, and it is not synonymous with abuse.

We do learn from failure and we do learn from pain.

You've also got cognitive dissonance wrong. Cognitive dissonance is a situation in which you experience distress due to conflicting beliefs.. the situation you described was distress plain and simple.

FWIW, I first became a member of ABA (Association for Behavior Analysis) back in the 80's. Haven't been to a conference for that last 10 years or so though, I only have my masters no PhD and only a couple of publicaitons.. none particularly notheworthy. But.. I have pretty good understanding of the basics so I couldn't let that post stand.

_____________________________

What you permit, you promote.

(in reply to epiphiny43)

Post #: 30

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 6:37:36 PM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Punishment is a beloved tool of weak dominants and is the LEAST effective way of changing behavior and only when used by someone who understands Pavlov and Skinner at the bare minimum. Most "punishment" in the bdsm world is ineffective and often counterproductive and is the tool of insecure and cowardly dominants.

Understanding, praise, and positive reinforcement have a far greater use in changing the behavior of humans.
Anger isn't a primary emotion, it stems from something else. When a child lashes out in anger we call it a tantrum...you can put a bow on it when an adult does it but it comes from the very same place.

So what you have in effect is someone who is angry over some action/behavior (because of some unrelated issue) and isn't acting from a place of self control or self awareness and is using a weak method of behavior modification on something that isn't even the cause of the anger. The anger flows from some past internal issue of the top/dom/master that they have failed to do with.

So that is why people who have punishment as a core tenant in their relationship tend to quickly get dismissed by me.

Quite a rant. lol

You've always struck me as knowing something about anger issues, so I'm curious.... If *your* sub does something to make you angry, how do you respond? From the above, I'm thinking you suck it up and wear it to show how "strong" and "in control" you are, yes?

Or you just suck it up and pretend she's always a perfect princess? Because if you're seriously saying that only children get angry, I'm happy to join the legions of those to be "dismissed" by someone so utterly in denial.

Waiting with bated breath here....

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 31

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 7:09:10 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

You are grossly oversimplifying the workings of punishment. The relative effectiveness of punishment hinges on a number of things like timing and especially intensity that most people dont get. In addition, it rarely results in internalization of behavior, it is easily extinguished and has a host of potential side effects which undermine a happy relationship.

(in reply to evesgrden)

Post #: 32

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 7:19:23 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Focus,

Its not a matter of handling it when i am angry, its more a matter of self examination to understand what issues underlie whatever it is that drove the anger and working on that.

Hope that helps.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 33

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 7:19:33 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

As Master said, he usually only has to give me a look or a few words and that's it. But there have been a time or two where he was upset with me enough that he whipped me with his belt or cane. Being that I hate pain and then add in there knowing he was that upset with me, it really drives the point home and I don't do it again, whatever it was that made him upset. It ends up bringing us closer together and helping us both to deal with the issue at hand. We're both busy people so sometimes I don't really get enough of a punishment from him just with a look or a few words depending on what it is. I may just shrug it off thinking it wasn't that big a deal to him and go about my busy day. But when he brings out that belt or cane, that drives it home that he's serious and that terrifies me (not from the pain, although yeah, I hate that...but just knowing I've destroyed his day and he now is disappointed in me).

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 34

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 8:21:24 PM

Moonlightmaddnes

Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SwitchNSpanky

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I believe corporal punishment is only proper for forming acceptable social behavior in children. Not for adults that can be reasoned with or incarcerated.

Butch

I totally get your point. I was raised similar. But, in my view. Spanking is for fun with the wife not to punish kids. I'd feel all sorts of creepy spanking my kid. This may be because I spanked chicks before spanking my progeny. It could be a me thing. But, regardless. I don't spank kids. I spank their mom instead.

Yeah this was my personal viewpoint on the matter, and LOL it is so funny how my husband never spanks our kids. My oldest is out of the house and the middle is 8, I think I have spanked them two or three times in their lives and he always glares at her with that look that makes her shake in her shoes and says you're lucky your mother got to you first. I don't think either have caught on that dad never hits he just looks and sounds scary. I wish I could copy that look. I threaten and eventually have to say do it or I spank before she runs to do it. He glared and pow just like that without a word she is running to do as she is told. Sad sad sad.

_____________________________

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(in reply to SwitchNSpanky)

Post #: 35

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 8:23:40 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

~fast reply~
Going with this definition for a moment: Punishment is the application of an aversive stimulus contingent upon a target behavior's occurance.

A friend of Carol's made a comment about her children and their household. It applies to Carol and I also. Truly, the "punishment" for both of us when we're not on the same page is that we're not on the same page. Even in small quantities that is highly troubling to us and left unattended it'll become a massive issue all by itself. We really, seriously, truly do not like there to be a "disruption in the force" between us. It's just not me applying the stimulus.. it's reality.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 36

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 8:24:49 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

I spanked my daughter a couple of times when she did something so dangerous I felt it was the only way to really drive the point home to her. I felt no qualms about it and those times I spanked her, she never did those things again.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to Moonlightmaddnes)

Post #: 37

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 8:39:22 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

EVERY informed professional in modern Psychology or Behavior Modification just got another stomach ache at the failure of years of indisputable experimentation to penetrate the minds of the general public. If you actually care to know how brains acquire useful knowledge and how children actually learn social behavior: Applied Behavior Analysis. Google if it's unfamiliar. (Cliff's Note version: Nervous systems in reasonable working order repeat successful actions. The system defines 'successful', not the observers.)
Recent studies show children of the ages most likely to be whipped or spanked do NOT learn from failure or pain, (or no one would ever learn to walk, or speak English) but from SUCCESS. Break point seems about 9? Watch a kid learn to ride a bike. It's the success and balance that they take away, not that riding a bike causes skinned knees and bruises. They learn Despite negative results, not because of them. Every serious study shows lifetime deficits and problems in children from early corporal punishment. Usually in proportion to the violence but hardly a constant relation. Some kids survive Hell remarkably intact, others are damaged by only a few or single spanking.
Few cultures in history before Western Urban cultures actually beat their own children. Many still don't. Only Enlightened Christians seem to feel whacking kids improves them? The greatest cognitive dissonance pre-Contact Hawaiians often experienced when Westerners came to the Islands was the first time they ever saw a child struck or beaten. Totally unimaginable to their 'savage' culture before the Missionaries came. The Christian locals are pretty violent in the families now. Maybe it's that damn 'old time religion' about the Angry Desert God? Jesus didn't seem all that big on beating anyone.

Crap psychology in my opinion... I did not beat my children but on rare occasions a spanking DID improve their social skills as no psycho babble could. I have found there are many ways to successfully raise a child but each child is different... Some respond to reason and others only a pop on the butt. I am all for trying reason but if that does not work and the child's safety or my sanity is at risk a sore butt will make them behave correctly...And it works despite what the Dr Spocks of this world say.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/19/2013 8:46:32 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to epiphiny43)

Post #: 38

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 8:53:50 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Punishment is a beloved tool of weak dominants and is the LEAST effective way of changing behavior and only when used by someone who understands Pavlov and Skinner at the bare minimum. Most "punishment" in the bdsm world is ineffective and often counterproductive and is the tool of insecure and cowardly dominants.

Understanding, praise, and positive reinforcement have a far greater use in changing the behavior of humans.
Anger isn't a primary emotion, it stems from something else. When a child lashes out in anger we call it a tantrum...you can put a bow on it when an adult does it but it comes from the very same place.

So what you have in effect is someone who is angry over some action/behavior (because of some unrelated issue) and isn't acting from a place of self control or self awareness and is using a weak method of behavior modification on something that isn't even the cause of the anger. The anger flows from some past internal issue of the top/dom/master that they have failed to do with.

So that is why people who have punishment as a core tenant in their relationship tend to quickly get dismissed by me.

Didn't I see this same post over on Fet on a closed thread?

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 39

RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? - 7/19/2013 9:24:07 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
So that is why people who have punishment as a core tenant in their relationship tend to quickly get dismissed by me.

... and yet... I still seem to have this lively respect for Ishtar and as I understand things Ullr is very strict and very quick to go to extreme lengths of punishment.
The rub for me is that it's blatantly obvious reading her posts that being with him is good for her. The relationship is working. In my few conversations with him it's equally obvious that he's a level-headed rational guy that I'd very much like to meet one day.

Nowadays I tend to judge each relationship on the simple criteria of "is it working". I've given up on judging dynamics without context.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 40

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