RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment?

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SimplyMichael -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/19/2013 9:32:07 PM)
I would be stunned if punishment was a core tenant in her relationship. Accountability, sure, but i am sure her good behavior in the relationship is due to much more postive things than "fear of the rod".

Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/19/2013 9:33:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder I spanked my daughter a couple of times when she did something so dangerous I felt it was the only way to really drive the point home to her. I felt no qualms about it and those times I spanked her, she never did those things again. Last year when she was 7 asked if she could ride her bike. I let her go down to the end of the block and back up again. I went out to check on her and she was no where to be seen. I looked for her and found her bike abandoned on the side of the road with no sign of her. I began to wonder if I needed to call the police when I called for her and there was no sign of any children around at all. Finally just when I was ready to panic a boy ran down the sidewalk and I asked him if he saw the little girl on the bike. He pointed to a house the next block over and told me she was over there. OH I was so over the top mad. She was on a completely different block. A family friend told a story of when he was a kid and in trouble his mother would get a switch and every time he slowed down she would hit him with it when he did stuff like that. When I spotted her and yelled her name she knew that instant she was in it deep. Her first words were I'm sorry mamma I forgot. Ha yeah forgot my ass. Oh I wanted to spank her like the family friend described, I thought about it, but I didn't. I knew I was way too mad so I sent her to her room. I sat on the chair and shook or a while. I am not sure if it was fear or anger that had me shaking so hard but I could not even type an email to my husband at that point. The only times I have spanked is when I have told her and told her and she is ignoring me. Even then sometimes saying that's it come here is enough to get her moving when she is being ornery.

JeffBC -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/19/2013 9:39:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael I would be stunned if punishment was a core tenant in her relationship. Accountability, sure, but i am sure her good behavior in the relationship is due to much more postive things than "fear of the rod". Near as I can tell they love the heck out of each other. But as I understand things he is quick to punish and in very extreme ways and yes, she fears the crap out of it. Honestly I don't really get it. But, as always, I don't need to get it. I just need to know it's working so a person I think of as a friend is happy. One day we'll be sipping wine over a coffee table and when I get to see it all in action I'll understand then. Still, I'm content with the idea that reality is as it is. If something works, it works. Remember that back when my control of Carol was more in-depth than it is now some degree of negative reaction from others was pretty common (at least online). To us it seemed natural, automatic, and the only obvious way to do things. I'm betting it's a lot like that for Ullr and Ishtar.

tammystarm -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 6:50:28 AM)
~FR~ Arturas has never used spanking for punishment. His method is to ignore me! Breaks my heart every time.

Kana -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 8:35:07 AM)
Hmmm, I've also dated masos (Hi Mouse) for whom consequences are about absolution and closure.Knowing that she has paid the external as well as internal price for her actions,knowing that the slate is wiped clean, she is able to leave the transgression behind and move forward cleanly into life. I have a pretty straightforward rule.Until a consequence comes down, I'll bring up the mistake as often as I want. Once a consequence has been served,unless the behavior is repeatedly observed, I'll never bring the situation up again. Why should I? She did her crime, she did the time. She paid her exit fee with suffering and tears and she knows it,I know it,and she knows I know it. So yeah, there have actually been situations wherein she begs for the consequence,just so as to put the mistake in the rear view...and my sidebar comments on said mistakes. It should be pointed out too that I don't casually lay this shit out. For me, every action has a consequence (Just like life, ya know), but physical consequences-usually there's is some sort of willful disobedience involved for things to come to that...

Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 8:52:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tammystarm ~FR~ Arturas has never used spanking for punishment. His method is to ignore me! Breaks my heart every time. Someone once told me their punishment was they had to sit in the chair while the house was messed up and they could not clean it up. All I could think was Oh. My. God. I would go nuts. Nope I couldn't do it. I would have to clean up the mess. I would go nuts if I couldn't.

evesgrden -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 9:01:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael You are grossly oversimplifying the workings of punishment. The relative effectiveness of punishment hinges on a number of things like timing and especially intensity that most people dont get. In addition, it rarely results in internalization of behavior, it is easily extinguished and has a host of potential side effects which undermine a happy relationship. Michael, I made no reference to internalization of behavior. If you want to infer inner workings, go right ahead. Either the behavior is changing with respect to frequency and/or intensity contingent upon a given stimulus (timely or otherwise) or it's not. If you think the effects of punishment are easily extinguished, you're mistaken. If you think that punishment has side effects which undermine a happy relationship, then I suggest you ask LittleWonder about how Kana's raised eyebrows have undermined their happiness. Because.. if he raises his eyebrows when she's bought the wrong coffee, and she then stops buying that coffee...guess what, the behavior was effectively punished. In reference to timing; I got a ticket for going through an amber/red light ... caught on camera. The ticket came some 6 weeks later. $168.00 later and I don't go through amber lights unless absolutely unavoidable now. One trial learning with delayed punishment. It worked. Would $175 be more effective than $152? Dunno, but that's the "intensity" aspect of it. People punish and reinforce each other all the time. What people in general don't get is that they're doing it... all the time. The question is whether you want to do it planfully or not. That's where self-awareness and anlysis of your own behavior come into play. eta .. fix typos

DesFIP -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 9:26:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: evesgrden Punishment is the application of an aversive stimulus contingent upon a target behavior's occurance. Actually I'd apply that definition to negative reinforcement. From what I'm seeing, a lot of you are confusing negative reinforcement and punishment. They are not the same. For that matter, neither are positive reinforcement and rewards. I find it easiest to lay this out in terms of horses, because you see the result immediately. Negative reinforcement is to pull the rein to one side, so he goes where you want him to. It's a little pressure to get him to do what you want. When he moves towards the rail (or wherever) you immediately remove the pressure on the rein. If he stops moving in the direction you want, you reapply the pressure. Removing the pressure is positive reinforcement and he gets to go without pressure as long as he continues to go where you asked him to. Beating him with a crop is punishment and it doesn't teach him to move to the rail. Giving him a peppermint is reward and it also doesn't teach him anything.

Arturas -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 10:02:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tammystarm ~FR~ Arturas has never used spanking for punishment. His method is to ignore me! Breaks my heart every time. Hi beautiful. It would be ineffective to use spanking/whipping as both punishment and reward. The collar is around your heart, is it not? kiss.

Inghammar -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 10:29:38 AM)
My doll has a list of obligations assigned to her in exchange for me to be her 'sir' such as being gagged, restrained, or encased for so many hours a week. Lately there is more lifestyle requirements that were negotiated such as minutes in the gym each week. There is a punishment clause if she falls below the expectations in the form of a number of swats on her rear dependent upon how much she fell short. She almost always makes her requirements, however, and the punishment is just there to add some flexibility and error control if real life gets in the way of meeting her requirements.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 10:39:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael I would be stunned if punishment was a core tenant in her relationship. Accountability, sure, but i am sure her good behavior in the relationship is due to much more postive things than "fear of the rod". Actually, that would depend on how you view things. Our marriage isn't based on kink at all, and we could drop any semblance of D/s or M/s tomorrow and still live happily every after. From a marriage perspective, our relationship isn't based around either punishment or positive reenforcement, because we're a team (unlike in Jeff's marriage, he's not the natural leader when we're in a vanilla dynamic, and it tends to shift more back and forward on who's in charge and leading on what and when). As such, in our marriage, neither of our 'good behavior' is based on either deliberately dished out positive reenforcement or consequences from either partner. We're just a team, and we do stuff together, and the positive reenforcement in that is that we both want to be happy, both love each other, and thus by extension both want the other to be happy. When we go kinky, what we have is 100% a punishment dynamic, with virtually no positive reenforcement whatsoever. I don't 'desire to please' at all, nor do I enjoy obeying, nor do I enjoy being lead in stuff I want to control myself, so the only way he can take control over those things -which apparently he wants to- is by attaching punishment and consequences to my failure to obey. If he doesn't do that, or if he's not extremely strict in reenforcing the rule (which btw Jeff, he isn't always, it depends on his own headspace and mood, but he knows that when he isn't in the mood it'll result in him getting zero obedience) what he ends up with is me throwing a halfhearted attempt at doing what I know he wants for a while, but the second I pick up on a lack of enforcement I start 'slacking' or stop doing what he wants altogether and revert back to doing whatever I want. The dude can't even get me to make his coffee consistently, unless he threatens to drag me out of bed and immediately beat the tar out of me if it's not made when he wakes up. What we do is very atypical as far as I understand it, when it comes to D/s or M/s style dynamics, but it happens to be the only way I'm personally willing and happy to obey commands I don't 'feel like' obeying (like making coffee). Because I don't care about pleasing him. Just making him coffee because he told me to doesn't have a payoff for me... there is nothing 'in it' for me. If it was only making coffee I might do it just because I love him and it's a small personal sacrifice to do it for him, but there's a laundry list of things he wants to be able to order me around on, so my patience for being praised on doing something I didn't want to do and didn't enjoy doing runs thin fast and rapidly turns into a 'oh yeah, now what are you going to do for me? Why do you get to tell me what to do, and I don't get to tell you what to do?' I do shit to make him happy all the time already, as his wife, from my own motivation and own accord, but if he's ordering me 'do this' I don't feel like I'm being his wife making him happy, I feel like I'm being forced and I get very defensive instead. So if he wants to get a positive response from ordering me around, he needs to figure out a way to make there be something 'in it' for me... Enter in punishment dynamic... Praise and positive reenforcement doesn't work, because I don't care how happy I made him making the coffee because when he's ordering me around he's introducing a power imbalance, that causes me to feel he 'owes' me something of equivalent value in return. The more he wants, the deeper that gap becomes, and the harder it gets to fill it in with nothing but a 'good job', 'good girl', or 'I'm pleased'. In fact, positive reenforcement and praise irritates me, and makes me feel belittled. I HATE being told 'good girl' and equivalents to the point that he knows doing that is THE fastest way to get rebellion the rest of the day. However, I love fear. Fear turns me on. Fear makes it all sexual to me. When he attaches punishment to the smallest of infractions (and I mean punishment as actual stuff I don't want, not funishment) I fear fucking up all day long, and the fear of that turns me on. So in a serious punishment dynamic, I run around horny as hell 24/7, ergo, there is a benefit to me obey, ergo, I will obey. Of course, it's far more labor intensive for him to do it this way, because he can never just assume that I will obey any given command. In order to get it to that point he needs to be on top of things all the time, in extreme detail, but he seems to more than enjoy doing that, and either way, it's his only choice if he wants to boss me around, because it's the only way I'm willing to be bossed around... his only other choice is to drop kink between us completely, and get another girl to boss around instead.

JeffBC -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 10:49:41 AM)
Thanks for that explanation Ish... that sort of snaps things into a much clearer focus in my head. That, of course, doesn't change my desire for that eventual glass of wine over the coffee table :) quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar but it happens to be the only way I'm personally willing to obey commands I don't 'feel like' obeying (like making coffee). This part stuck out at me because in comparing you and Carol it's just such an entirely different mindset. Sure sure, some commands she wants to obey moreso than others but in her own mind none of them are really optional. I don't even need to make it a command. Simply knowing I wanted some coffee would be enough to remove substantial amounts of "free will" from her. The idea of (trying to frame this in her mindset) "Being a lazy shirker and ignoring the needs of those around her... me in particular" would be a lot like you contemplating some act you saw as extremely dishonorable. It'd be running up against some really core stuff.

MarineKitten -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 10:52:13 AM)
Nope, we talk things out if there is an issue. We find that communication is key to figuring out, and helping each other with problems that arise. There was even one time I begged to be punished for my behavior, and my Sir reluctantly complied. It was after that that we discussed a better way of dealing with things; through honest and open communication. He wants to encourage me, not beat me down and make me feel like shit. He wants me to be confident, not jumpy, and expecting a beating every moment I think I'm doing something wrong. God if we did that I'd be hospitalized for severe anxiety. Not saying that others don't do it, or that it doesn't work. It just doesn't work for us. I'd much rather have my beatings as a form of funishment. They help me to relax, and release pent up energy.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 11:09:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC Thanks for that explanation Ish... that sort of snaps things into a much clearer focus in my head. That, of course, doesn't change my desire for that eventual glass of wine over the coffee table :) quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar but it happens to be the only way I'm personally willing to obey commands I don't 'feel like' obeying (like making coffee). This part stuck out at me because in comparing you and Carol it's just such an entirely different mindset. Sure sure, some commands she wants to obey moreso than others but in her own mind none of them are really optional. I don't even need to make it a command. Simply knowing I wanted some coffee would be enough to remove substantial amounts of "free will" from her. The idea of (trying to frame this in her mindset) "Being a lazy shirker and ignoring the needs of those around her... me in particular" would be a lot like you contemplating some act you saw as extremely dishonorable. It'd be running up against some really core stuff. I don't know what exactly caused the mental shift, I've jet to figure that one out, because while I was with Bull, I had the same thing going on. Just suspecting he wanted something was enough to make it imperative to me that he needed to get it... at least while our relationship was on solid ground. However, that's not something that came naturally to me, and wasn't something I did before meeting him, or have felt like since things went south with us. I am still not completely sure how he did manage to make that shift in my head, so other than noting that it was there once, and how it feels like to feel like that, I don't have a good grasp on the causes. Currently things are hardly as black and white as my previous post implies (deliberately, in an attempt to get the point across) because there are various times when we're being more vanilla, and I get up to go to the kitchen and will ask him if he wants something because I'm going anyways. I'm much more inclined to do that than he is, though he's more inclined to do other stuff than I am, so it balances out. What I'm not inclined to do is jump up the second his cup is empty and I know he wants more, and go get it for him so he doesn't have to. After all, I'm doing my own stuff, and it's as much an interruption for me to do that as it would be for him. I don't have the desire to go out of my way to put my own life on the back-burner to make his more pleasant. Seeing that a lot of the stuff that he wants to order me around on feel to me like he's expecting me to put my life on the back-burner for him, he needs to figure out a way to make us both feel that through obeying, both are lives are on the front-burner, which is why keeping me horny 24/7 with threats of punishment works. I suspect that for Carol, fulfilling your needs (and those of those around her) IS having her life on the front-burner, because it's how she self-identifies her place in the world. For her, not to do so wouldn't just be shrieking from her duties, it's be shrieking from who she is as a person. That type of internal mechanism she has not being the same for me, it's just a matter of giving me different input than you give Carol, in order to result in a similar type of output. [:)]

JeffBC -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 11:24:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar I don't know what exactly caused the mental shift, I've jet to figure that one out, because while I was with Bull, I had the same thing going on. Just suspecting he wanted something was enough to make it imperative to me that he needed to get it... at least while our relationship was on solid ground. You're over thinking it. We are a highly social species. You are with a different person therefor you are not even the same you much less in the same relationship. Given that every single component is different it's no surprise the end result is different. quote: That type of internal mechanism she has not being the same for me, it's just a matter of giving me different input than you give Carol, in order to result in a similar type of output. [:)] Of course :) As you know I'm a huge fan of "that which works". I just thought it was interesting to note the particular little bit of difference which drove much of this dichotomy. I see you two as much like us in terms of your larger relationship so it's interesting (to me anyway) to see how some little nuances play out.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 11:34:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael i am sure her good behavior in the relationship is due to much more postive things than "fear of the rod". As an additional thought: I actually think the correct way of describing our relationship is that fear of punishment IS what the positive reenforcement part is. For all intensive purposes, in the way you're thinking about building a positive relationship structure that's fulfilling for both people, my 'fear of the rod' (literally and precisely the fear itself, not the punishment itself) is a 100% equatable to what you're think of as 'positive reinforcement'.

tammystarm -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 1:00:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes quote: ORIGINAL: tammystarm ~FR~ Arturas has never used spanking for punishment. His method is to ignore me! Breaks my heart every time. Someone once told me their punishment was they had to sit in the chair while the house was messed up and they could not clean it up. All I could think was Oh. My. God. I would go nuts. Nope I couldn't do it. I would have to clean up the mess. I would go nuts if I couldn't. Funny, I'm about the opposite now a days. Hard limit= housework! No not really, but I've been sick and now pregnant that its been up to everyone in the house to take care of it. Wasnt always that way, there was a time when I was mega OCD on housework, kinda glad those days are over. It's nice to enjoy a house that has a bit of clutter and not freak! It took alot to get here though, panic and anxiety attacks among them .

tammystarm -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 1:03:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: ORIGINAL: tammystarm ~FR~ Arturas has never used spanking for punishment. His method is to ignore me! Breaks my heart every time. Hi beautiful. It would be ineffective to use spanking/whipping as both punishment and reward. The collar is around your heart, is it not? kiss. Very true. The collar is around my very essence and somehow , even when I think it's impossible, it grows stronger and deeper everyday! kiss

Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 2:54:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tammystarm quote: ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes quote: ORIGINAL: tammystarm ~FR~ Arturas has never used spanking for punishment. His method is to ignore me! Breaks my heart every time. Someone once told me their punishment was they had to sit in the chair while the house was messed up and they could not clean it up. All I could think was Oh. My. God. I would go nuts. Nope I couldn't do it. I would have to clean up the mess. I would go nuts if I couldn't. Funny, I'm about the opposite now a days. Hard limit= housework! No not really, but I've been sick and now pregnant that its been up to everyone in the house to take care of it. Wasnt always that way, there was a time when I was mega OCD on housework, kinda glad those days are over. It's nice to enjoy a house that has a bit of clutter and not freak! It took alot to get here though, panic and anxiety attacks among them . Oh I have been there, recently. This last one kicked my ass. I was so tired and sick to my stomach it's a wonder anything got done. My husband complains about the house feeling like a museum and liking the lived in look. Oh he got the lived in look all right. LOL

Focus50 -> RE: Do you use spanking/whipping as punishment? (7/20/2013 3:19:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Focus, Its not a matter of handling it when i am angry, its more a matter of self examination to understand what issues underlie whatever it is that drove the anger and working on that. Hope that helps. Hardly! lol Yeah, I do that when I go through the occasional phase of all manner of otherwise little things making me angry. Stupid things like traffic lights, a barking dog or seemingly more idiots about than usual etc. Not quite genuine anger but certainly impatience and lots of "colourful" expletives.... Experience says the common denominator there is me, that I've likely got something unrelated distracting me which I'm either not addressing or frustrated that I am but getting nowhere.... But that's when it is about me. This topic basically asks when your sub does something worthy of some form of punishment - which I reason as her making me angry rather than me already being in a mood - how do you handle that? Not much point "internalising" if she's taking it to the extreme and being an overt brat. Anger is a real emotion. And that there is a difference between you just being in a mood as opposed to someone causing that reaction with a single act. I've found the latter to be more explosive and if it's my girl's actions that's done it, there's no way I'm taking to her with a flogger for it. I like inflicting pain but I'd just die if I hurt her. To wait until later (when I've cooled down) ranks of revenge or a grudge etc and I won't do that to her. And sucking it up and letting it go (internalising) is how a dom creates a brat, IMO. Focus.

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