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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:00:38 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Sorry Ken in my haste to make a point I cut your name off... I do get carried away now and then...

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:02:08 PM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I would also like to point out that as far as I can tell, no one even knows whether or not the rafters were on a part of the gravel bar that they had the right to be on. There is a lot of fuss being made about the waterline issue, but does anyone know where this altercation even took place in relationship to the waterline? That aspect of prosecution is moot if the man who was shot had crossed the waterline.


That is my holding point. We dont know exactly where this altercation took place. Reading various reports, and the statement given by the police....

In the court papers, Detective Zachary A. Driskill of the Crawford County Sheriff's Office explains that he interviewed Crocker after the shooting. Crocker told him he had seen a man urinating and told him to leave the gravel bar.

Crocker "stated that he told the male that the gravel bar was his property and he did not want him to urinate there and that he needed to leave," Driskill wrote. Crocker said the man refused to leave. Crocker walked back to his vehicle and then turned back and again walked back to the gravel bar. When Crocker returned, men were yelling at him "stating that they weren't going to leave and that the gravel bar was public property."

http://eyeondentcounty.typepad.com/

Now, according to that, it all centers around the gravel bar. The man who was shot wasnt the man who trespassed.

If the picture up thread is accurate that gravel bed is definitely below the high water mark and therefore legally part of the public way.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:02:24 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		lol... first they were not in their vehicles and the shooter was not trying to take them or damage them...so they would be irrelevant to this case I would think.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 243
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:03:37 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

lol... first they were not in their vehicles and the shooter was not trying to take them or damage them...so they would be irrelevant to this case I would think.

Butch

Does the law require the attacker be trying to take or damage the vehicle? I'm having some trouble actually finding the Missouri state code.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:05:04 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		~FR

Here is the public statement by Sheriff

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/155381874?access_key=key-60dvjjk1klxs7k51fte&allow_share=true

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:05:20 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe I am wrong but I think THIS is it.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 246
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:05:28 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Missouri's SYG removed the rafters duty to retreat


Maybe I am opening a can of worms here but Missouri's SYG law would NOT cover the floaters. It only covers Home and vehicle unlike Florida's law. Now self defense could come into play but remember the last aggressive move before the shooting was not by the shooter. Again I am just saying what the shooters lawyer will say... And I think a jury will not buy it.

Butch

Remember for a point of reference he said earlier that the rafters should have beaten Crocker to death as soon as they saw a gun.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 247
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:07:23 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Were some of the rafters in their rafts, which legally are vehicles?



Yeah.... they were standing up in their 'vehicles', zooming down the river, and pissing on the guy's property 50 yards away.

I repeat....

< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 7/25/2013 10:09:29 PM >

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:08:34 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I would also like to point out that as far as I can tell, no one even knows whether or not the rafters were on a part of the gravel bar that they had the right to be on. There is a lot of fuss being made about the waterline issue, but does anyone know where this altercation even took place in relationship to the waterline? That aspect of prosecution is moot if the man who was shot had crossed the waterline.


That is my holding point. We dont know exactly where this altercation took place. Reading various reports, and the statement given by the police....

In the court papers, Detective Zachary A. Driskill of the Crawford County Sheriff's Office explains that he interviewed Crocker after the shooting. Crocker told him he had seen a man urinating and told him to leave the gravel bar.

Crocker "stated that he told the male that the gravel bar was his property and he did not want him to urinate there and that he needed to leave," Driskill wrote. Crocker said the man refused to leave. Crocker walked back to his vehicle and then turned back and again walked back to the gravel bar. When Crocker returned, men were yelling at him "stating that they weren't going to leave and that the gravel bar was public property."

http://eyeondentcounty.typepad.com/

Now, according to that, it all centers around the gravel bar. The man who was shot wasnt the man who trespassed.

No the man who was shot was the one who made a swipe at Crocker's gun.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 249
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:10:14 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Missouri's SYG removed the rafters duty to retreat


Maybe I am opening a can of worms here but Missouri's SYG law would NOT cover the floaters. It only covers Home and vehicle unlike Florida's law. Now self defense could come into play but remember the last aggressive move before the shooting was not by the shooter. Again I am just saying what the shooters lawyer will say... And I think a jury will not buy it.

Butch

Remember for a point of reference he said earlier that the rafters should have beaten Crocker to death as soon as they saw a gun.

No. After he shot at them. Then they were definitely entitled to use deadly force in self defense.

Crocker of course doesn't get to argue self defense since he initiated the encounter and never made any attempt to break it off.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 250
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:11:30 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Isn't that the same logic used to persuade the Zimmerman jury to return a guilty verdict?

Only instead of following while brown, this guy committed the heinous premeditated crime of actually buying the property long before these rafters were innocently driving their 'vehicles' down the right way. Clearly he was stalking them all along.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


No. After he shot at them. Then they were definitely entitled to use deadly force in self defense.

Crocker of course doesn't get to argue self defense since he initiated the encounter and never made any attempt to break it off.



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 7/25/2013 10:14:20 PM >

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 251
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:14:57 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

lol... first they were not in their vehicles and the shooter was not trying to take them or damage them...so they would be irrelevant to this case I would think.

Butch

Does the law require the attacker be trying to take or damage the vehicle? I'm having some trouble actually finding the Missouri state code.



It says the attacker must be trying to enter the vehicle... was he trying to get in their rafts?

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 252
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:15:37 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		I wonder how that 'duty to retreat' plays out in a raft... the same way it does when lying on your back with someone on top of you?

Or do you have to make the raft float upstream?


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Missouri's SYG removed the rafters duty to retreat


Maybe I am opening a can of worms here but Missouri's SYG law would NOT cover the floaters. It only covers Home and vehicle unlike Florida's law. Now self defense could come into play but remember the last aggressive move before the shooting was not by the shooter. Again I am just saying what the shooters lawyer will say... And I think a jury will not buy it.

Butch

Remember for a point of reference he said earlier that the rafters should have beaten Crocker to death as soon as they saw a gun.



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 7/25/2013 10:16:07 PM >

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 253
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:15:59 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Crocker told police the shooting came as the culmination of a dispute over whether the group was trespassing or not, and he fired after a man approached him with rocks in his hands. Paul Dart wasn’t the one with the rocks.

“I just shot the one closest to me,” Crocker said, according to police.

.......

Then, Loretta Dart said, her cousin picked up a rock. (Crocker told police the man had a rock in each hand.) Her husband stood between her cousin and the gunman.

“My husband tried to calm the guy down,” Loretta Dart said. “He went to the guy’s arm to try to stop him, but the guy jerked back and popped him in the face.”



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 254
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:18:17 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I think this will be his downfall...even though he was on his land...or could be

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/25/2013 10:19:07 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 255
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:21:43 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		650,000 bond, cash only.... tells you something right there

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 256
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 11:02:03 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		The guy with the gun committed assault first by appearing and firing the weapon or displaying it in a threatening manner. At that point he cannot claim self defense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

No amount of pointless discussion about waterways and easements is going to take away any American citizen's right to self defense, no matter how badly you wish that right to be reserved for the elite.




_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Profile   Post #: 257
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 11:10:22 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Easement rights extend to the high water mark, per federal law. That gravel bar is submerged during several months of the year.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 258
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 11:17:20 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		By 'appearing'? In a puff of smoke?

ROTFLMAO!!! Dream on.


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

The guy with the gun committed assault first by appearing and firing the weapon or displaying it in a threatening manner. At that point he cannot claim self defense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

No amount of pointless discussion about waterways and easements is going to take away any American citizen's right to self defense, no matter how badly you wish that right to be reserved for the elite.






_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 259
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/26/2013 3:36:57 AM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline 		Basically the land owner had a bad attitude, wanted to throw his weight around with a gun, none of it would have ever happened, if he hadn't brought a gun to backup his temper tantrum about bodily functions on his supposed land. I hope he is prosecuted to the full extent of the law which includes anger management classes. I have to say, the floaters, should have said no problem buddy and floated quietly away, but their judgment obviously was impaired.
Here is another story. We sold our farm of 25 yrs and never had ONE PROBLEM with our neighbors! Not one. We all helped each other in fact. I am not sure the exact laws, but when in comes to hunting, a deer stand is suppose to be so many feet off the property boundary of the adjoining neighbors. Our neighbor of 25 yrs had always had a deer stand by our property a little to close, 25 foot or so, we didn't care at all. Responsible respectable hunters, so why would be squabble about 25 foot? When the new guy bought our old property, he walked the property line with a gun, and came across the neighbor in the woods. It was hunting season so the other neighbor had a gun too in his deer stand. The new property owner yelled up to him "Hey you are going to have to move this stand it is to close to MY PROPERTY." THe neighbor replied "Its been here 25 yrs" THe new property owner said has he examined his gun ' well that was then and this is now. move it within the week' The already established neighbor said " WHen I get a chance Ill move it, but be careful out here, its hunting season, accidents can happen"
How well do you think this new property owner will fare in this area?
To date their house hasn't been built, and the deer stand hasn't been moved, that was 10 months ago. He didn't even try to have a civil conversation, his first response was to spout off with a gun.

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I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
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