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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 8:41:35 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I agree and the Missouri Water laws are complicated and contradicting in different sections but all say as a minimum that the low water mark is the designation of private property... and this means the shooting took place on his land.

I still think this will have little affect on the charge of murder...but it does give a good lawyer something to sink his teeth in...Because Missouri SYG laws:

A person does not have a duty to retreat from a dwelling, residence, or vehicle where the person is not unlawfully entering or unlawfully remaining. A person does not have a duty to retreat from private property that is owned or leased by such individual.

And below would be the states task:

If a defendant asserts that his or her use of force is described under subdivision (2) of subsection 2 of this section, the burden shall then be on the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not reasonably believe that the use of such force was necessary to defend against what he or she reasonably believed was the use or imminent use of unlawful force.


Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/25/2013 8:53:56 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 8:42:47 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Harry Styron, a lawyer from Ozark, Missouri, and an expert on property rights along streams and rivers, said such cases were extremely confusing.

'They are difficult to interpret,' Styron said. 'You are on private property, but you have a right to be there if it's a navigable stream and as long as you are on a gravel bar that is submerged during parts of the year, because it's part of the stream bed.'

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 8:44:15 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

If the landowner lived there and he didn't know about waterways easements, and thought it WAS his PROPERTY, how the hell did some strangers know all about easements? Or was it some "macho" thing among the boaters that escalated. "Goddam old farmer can't tell ME what to do!"


Stranger's who had been boating there for years and years. Hell, I dont live there and I know that gravel bar is public property. Why didnt the property owner?

It's not public property, it's a public easement.
I'm thinking there are 3 stories here
His story
their story
the true story.

As for those who wonder why anyone would approach a man with a gun, remember, alcohol was involved.

What I have been trying to say with lets wait for the rest of the information but yours is simpler and better.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 8:45:57 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Dom....you need to read through the appropriate sections... The link IS the law on recreation rights and property owners. It exactly covers this case as to property rights and recreational rights and it is spelled out clearly if you take the time to read through it.

Butch

Which pages? That is a fairly long PDF.

18, 27 and the section starting at 223 are the most important.

18 was not helpful although 19 was and confirmed that federal law does grant public access to navigable water ways.
27 is about water rights, i.e. who can use the water in a water way and for what purposes. It is not relevant.
223 is an appendix of water rights case law and they all seem to focus on water rights not on public easements.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 7/25/2013 9:12:03 PM >

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 8:46:31 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Skinner v. Osage County, 822 S.W.2d 437
(1991)

I keep seeing this case cited in reference to the gravel bars.

I couldnt shoot someone accessing the beach if they used the "public easement" from my house. Its my understanding that if they were below the water mark, its not considered "private property". He may own it, but its still not property he can drive people off from.

The "expert" in the Post Dispatch article didn't seem sure about where it ended for his explanation the law is unclear there.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 205
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 8:47:40 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I agree and the Missouri Water laws are complicated and contradicting in different sections but all say as a minimum that the low water mark is the designation of private property... and this means the shooting took place on his land.

Butch

No one ever disputed that. But it was on the public easement just like if it had happened on the sidewalk outside your house. You may own the property but you cannot deny its use by the public.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 206
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 8:49:33 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

FR

It seems to me from what's in the article, the guy with gun shouldn't have been firing warning shots, especially towards the floaters if indeed that's what happened. The shooting seems to me to have been unnecessary based on what I've gleaned from the article. However there aren't enough details provided to make a determination one way or the other. All the witnesses were in the floater group and may be biased for the victim. If I'm that land owner and I'm going down to the river armed to yell at people who are trespassing, my piece would be holstered and I wouldn't approach too close to the floaters. I certainly wouldn't pull the gun unless they started to approach me with a threatening attitude. Maybe a warning shot if there is time before they reach my personal space. In fact if it was me I would have been somewhat polite about telling the floaters they're trespassing and to leave immediately or at least tried to be polite yet firm. I can't see shooting someone over that situation and there is no comparison here to the Zimmerman case.

If I'm a floater who was confronted by a guy brandishing a handgun yelling at me to get off his property, right or wrong, I'm going to apologize and get the fuck out of there. Either way I'm not going to shoot or get shot over practically nothing.

In some places, and I don't know if Missouri is one of them, you are required to fire a warning shot, that was the case in Alabama up till about 7 years ago.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 207
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 8:51:26 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Skinner v. Osage County, 822 S.W.2d 437
(1991)

I keep seeing this case cited in reference to the gravel bars.

I couldnt shoot someone accessing the beach if they used the "public easement" from my house. Its my understanding that if they were below the water mark, its not considered "private property". He may own it, but its still not property he can drive people off from.

The "expert" in the Post Dispatch article didn't seem sure about where it ended for his explanation the law is unclear there.


Because the exact gravel bar's water level is still in question. I would think someone from that area would know for sure if the gravel bar was under water part of the year or not.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 208
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 8:52:40 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Ok.. so does it start at the low water mark or the high? I thought it was the high

The guy in the Post Dispatch said they sometimes use the vegetation line and admitted that this is often hard to determine.
The phrase sometime used bothers me.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 209
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 8:55:00 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Were I grew up, Hannibal Mo the difference between the high and low water mark was nearly a mile the high water mark encompassing three banks and dozens of businesses.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 210
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 8:56:32 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		tazzy I agree it is confusing but in the provided laws it was quite plain as to the ownership of the gravel to the low water mark. But I agree good lawyers will twist the laws into knots to fit their case.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 211
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 9:00:17 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OK all water rights listed in the various stories referencing this thread are WRONG.

The real story is this:

Property owners own the land to the middle of the river...but not the water. The water of a navigable stream is free to all for boating and wading. BUT the property owners have riparian rights to the EDGE of the water. Meaning the gravel bar WAS his private property. So anything that happened in this case will be filtered through private property rights.

Here are the rules of Missouri

Butch

That is water rights which are entirely different from the public easement for navigable waterways. Basically if you own property and a waterway flows through which can be used by even a canoe or raft you must allow free use of the waterway below the high water line.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Navigable+Waters

That would mean that in my home town people who own business on Main street have no control over their own property.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 212
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 9:00:22 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		There is a difference between ownership and public rights. Just like beach access, I can own that property, but I cannot block beach access and shoot people for using that access.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 9:06:00 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Dom in some sections of the water law it says the property runs to the center of the river with the water above being free and public... and in others as tazzy pointed out the property line is referred to as the low water mark. The problems of course is the law tries to balance property rights and use against the free access to the public above the land in the water... I can see where these laws need to be vague for many reasons.. for instance the waterway may naturally move one direction or another over time... An owners rights to build along the river may interferer with free navigation...and of course the abuse of private property along river banks.

So I believe this case will be on private property but the circumstances of free access will be taken into account in the trial. And reason will have to prevail.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 214
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 9:07:59 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		That's right but his land was not the access... the river was their free access not his land. And by the way he does not have to provide access to the river across his land.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 215
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 9:09:52 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		No, he doesnt. My point is that the gravel bar, if its submerged during any part of the year, its public access. The one guy was wrong going into his woods. But, after he left the woods and returned to the rest of the party, they were no longer trespassing.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 7/25/2013 9:11:33 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 216
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 9:13:22 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Were I grew up, Hannibal Mo the difference between the high and low water mark was nearly a mile the high water mark encompassing three banks and dozens of businesses.

It's not the flood level but the normal high water mark.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 217
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 9:15:14 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		This.. to me... is a gravel bar....



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 9:15:22 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		No Dom it is different... the land under the water is private property... the water over it is public... to the low water line is his property. This has to be the case to insure the owners right to the waterline to do as he pleases under the water laws statutes.

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 9:17:18 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		The gravel they were talking about extended to the water only on one side... It was not surrounded by water. On your picture it would be the gravel on the far bank .

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/25/2013 9:18:09 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 220
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