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RE: Benghazi - 7/30/2013 8:18:32 PM   
cloudboy


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Why does this thread still have legs? Is someone here on the Fox News payroll?

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Benghazi - 7/30/2013 8:27:03 PM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Why does this thread still have legs? Is someone here on the Fox News payroll?

Could be. The more you trash something, the more people become curious about it.

K.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Benghazi - 7/30/2013 9:01:48 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Why does this thread still have legs? Is someone here on the Fox News payroll?



More like the OFA email list.

I'm wondering how many of the players have ever even seen an F-16, except on the History Channel, though.


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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Benghazi - 7/30/2013 9:05:56 PM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


Do any of you cooks and latrine cleaners have any experience in military arts after basic?




Right. We should be getting our guidance on military matters from lifer E-6's, who spent their last 10 years supervising urination formations...

There is a nifty trick they practice out at China Lake sometimes, where supersonic fighters come over at about 500-650 feet above the ground, and break every goddamn window for miles with the sonic boom. Makes the fucking savages shit their panties, without dropping a thing off the airplane.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda, didn't, but hey, let's make sure we keep that movie guy locked up.


Those "savages" keep kicking our ass. If airpower was so fucking amazing, why did we have such problems in Iraq and Afghanistan, same goes for the russians...and if you ask anyone who has actually been UNDER one of those fucking things, few guys I know want some idiot in an F16 doing close in air support, ESPECIALLY at night with CBUs!

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Benghazi - 7/30/2013 9:11:31 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Why does this thread still have legs? Is someone here on the Fox News payroll?

Could be. The more you trash something, the more people become curious about it.

K.



Kirata, I appreciate your thoughtful posts even if we don't see eye to eye. I really hadn't looked into this before this thread, I had assumed that this was a built up area and it really isn't. However, I still don't get what the big deal is, shit happens, people fuck up, I don't understand why people think this is a big conspiracy.

An embassy in a recently overthrown muslim country without a strong central government, recipe for bad shit no matter who is president.
Attacks happen, people die.

To me, logic says if they seriously knew something was going to happen, and it was an election year, you pull them out. If you don't know and shit goes down and mistakes are made, again, shit happens. Its a small outpost, lots of chaos, clearly with CIA guys that close in, people were doing something fishy and it took a while to get what happened straight.

I just don't see what is supposedly a big deal, compared to all sorts of other fuck ups regardless of party, can you give me a consise outline of why these guys foam at the mouth over this.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Benghazi - 7/30/2013 9:30:30 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Why does this thread still have legs? Is someone here on the Fox News payroll?


Exactly. And everyone bitching about it is on MSNBC's payroll. Your check is in the mail.

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Benghazi - 7/30/2013 9:37:51 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline
quote:

I just don't see what is supposedly a big deal, compared to all sorts of other fuck ups regardless of party, can you give me a consise outline of why these guys foam at the mouth over this.


Because there is smoke. A lot of it. Leading one to believe there is a fire. You know, everyone screws up. It's human nature to be imperfect even if you are the Commander in Chief. It's how you deal with your fuck-up that marks you as a great President. Take Clinton. He was not a great President because he lied and thereby showed what a little man he really was. Obama? The Chicago Politician? A liar also? Is there smoke?

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Benghazi - 7/30/2013 10:53:32 PM   
DaddySatyr


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The reason this smacks of "cover-up" is because for three weeks after the incident, we were treated to any administration official or representative that could get near a microphone, insisting that it wasn't a terrorist attack (to help CREEP's efforts to get Obummer a second term) but that it was an impromptu reaction to some facacta video on youtube.

The president lied; through his own lips and surrogates.

Let's go further than that ...

This administration made little effort to defend US soil (because that's what an embassy is) in the hopes that a terrorist attack on US soil could be forgotten about lest it interfere with the desired narrative.

Our government failed our embassador and our security team at the embassy and then, they failed the US citizens ( a plurality of whom pulled a lever next to this lying piece of shit's name).



Regards,



Richard M. Nixon


< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 7/30/2013 10:55:02 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Benghazi - 7/30/2013 11:00:38 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Kirata, I appreciate your thoughtful posts even if we don't see eye to eye. I really hadn't looked into this before this thread, I had assumed that this was a built up area and it really isn't. However, I still don't get what the big deal is, shit happens, people fuck up, I don't understand why people think this is a big conspiracy... can you give me a consise outline of why these guys foam at the mouth over this.

Well I'm not one of the rabid foamers, but some of what I'm seeing makes me want to spit. Shit happens, sure. But what happened exactly? And why has it been so hard to find out? Why, instead of being forthcoming, has the Obama Administration been doing an impression of non-stick cookware?

Earlier this month, CBS News reported that the Pentagon declined Republican congressional requests to produce Bristol [Marine Corps Col. George Bristol, AFRICOM] for interviews. At the time, the Pentagon said Bristol had retired and that they "cannot compel retired members to testify before Congress." ~CBS News

Under continuing pressure from Congress, the Pentagon finally "discovered" that he's not really retired. Heh. Nevermind folks, move along, nothing to see here. It's taken until July of 2013 to finally get Bristol in front of the House Armed Services Committee. And still, only behind tightly closed doors.

I mean seriously, if the Administration "did everything possible" and there was "no attempt to cover up," then what the fuck?

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/30/2013 11:03:19 PM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Benghazi - 7/30/2013 11:01:43 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Why does this thread still have legs? Is someone here on the Fox News payroll?

Could be. The more you trash something, the more people become curious about it.

K.



Kirata, I appreciate your thoughtful posts even if we don't see eye to eye. I really hadn't looked into this before this thread, I had assumed that this was a built up area and it really isn't. However, I still don't get what the big deal is, shit happens, people fuck up, I don't understand why people think this is a big conspiracy.

An embassy in a recently overthrown muslim country without a strong central government, recipe for bad shit no matter who is president.
Attacks happen, people die.

To me, logic says if they seriously knew something was going to happen, and it was an election year, you pull them out. If you don't know and shit goes down and mistakes are made, again, shit happens. Its a small outpost, lots of chaos, clearly with CIA guys that close in, people were doing something fishy and it took a while to get what happened straight.

I just don't see what is supposedly a big deal, compared to all sorts of other fuck ups regardless of party, can you give me a consise outline of why these guys foam at the mouth over this.

Their world view wouldn't let them admit it would happen so they took no precautions. Then panic struck and they lied about it. That's why people are upset.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Benghazi - 7/30/2013 11:27:38 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


Do any of you cooks and latrine cleaners have any experience in military arts after basic?




Right. We should be getting our guidance on military matters from lifer E-6's, who spent their last 10 years supervising urination formations...

There is a nifty trick they practice out at China Lake sometimes, where supersonic fighters come over at about 500-650 feet above the ground, and break every goddamn window for miles with the sonic boom. Makes the fucking savages shit their panties, without dropping a thing off the airplane.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda, didn't, but hey, let's make sure we keep that movie guy locked up.


I know Heretic - I said the same thing 5-6 pages ago - but Factless Ken is at it again - without quotes, knowledge, facts or.. well anything.

F-16 flyovers have often dispersed troops; especially as they do not know whether its a CBU, a laser munition or what will happen next. Sure - you're going to stick around to find out. Sure you are.


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Benghazi - 7/30/2013 11:36:24 PM   
Phydeaux


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Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

How many times do I have to tell you this ferry range is of no use as it represents a plane fitted with nothing but droptanks and no weapons. What matters is combat radius and your own sources say that even a minimally loaded F-16 cannot make the trip without tanker support which greatly increases the amount of time before the planes, which couldn't have done anything useful anyway, got there.



You can keep telling me as many times as you want -- and I will keep saying its a pile of shit because people with better brains than you say you're wrong. And they have facts on their side - as opposed to you who are just offering an opinion in the hopes of obfuscating.

I live near an airbase - there are always a squad of fighters on active alert. Ferrying F-16's to sigonella would take 2 hours, including readying the crew. Hotflash reloads take 1.08 hours. Again, per the previously quoted ACTUAL F-16 pilot.

Another hour from Sigonella to Benghazi. A little bit more than 4 hours. MORE THAN adequate to save daugherty and woods. Fight started at 9:16pm. This puts them on station at 1:30 am. The guy hit by the mortar was killed shortly after 5am. And the ambassador was proclaimed dead after 3 am.

So yes - even ferrying planes you can rescue two people possibly three. Exposing the bald faced lie by the adminstration that there were no assets in range. The hell there wasn't.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Benghazi - 7/31/2013 1:31:37 AM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

How many times do I have to tell you this ferry range is of no use as it represents a plane fitted with nothing but droptanks and no weapons. What matters is combat radius and your own sources say that even a minimally loaded F-16 cannot make the trip without tanker support which greatly increases the amount of time before the planes, which couldn't have done anything useful anyway, got there.



You can keep telling me as many times as you want -- and I will keep saying its a pile of shit because people with better brains than you say you're wrong. And they have facts on their side - as opposed to you who are just offering an opinion in the hopes of obfuscating.

I live near an airbase - there are always a squad of fighters on active alert. Ferrying F-16's to sigonella would take 2 hours, including readying the crew. Hotflash reloads take 1.08 hours. Again, per the previously quoted ACTUAL F-16 pilot.

Another hour from Sigonella to Benghazi. A little bit more than 4 hours. MORE THAN adequate to save daugherty and woods. Fight started at 9:16pm. This puts them on station at 1:30 am. The guy hit by the mortar was killed shortly after 5am. And the ambassador was proclaimed dead after 3 am.

So yes - even ferrying planes you can rescue two people possibly three. Exposing the bald faced lie by the adminstration that there were no assets in range. The hell there wasn't.

Since when does a USN airbase that does not have any F-18's stationed carry weapons that will fit on a F-16? The only combat aircraft stationed there are AC-130's and they don't carry the sort of munitions that go under a F-16. So the ferry to Sigonella and rearm is simply not feasible.

The only way to do this would have been to get a tanker fueled up and on station somewhere over the med, send the F-16's down to it, refuel and deliver the strike which puts the whole operation at least 5 hours and that assumes no delay in formulating a plan and getting air crews back on base.

And here's the kicker, what would a F-16 do once on station? The security contractors were killed by the 2nd and 3rd mortar rounds fired from a mortar no one could see. How would the F-16's stop that? Cluster bombing the friendly community around the CIA compound? Free fall unguided bombs? What? This fantasy that the attackers would disperse after a flyover is ludicrous. These guys had taken a lot of casualties and kept at it.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Benghazi - 7/31/2013 3:42:13 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

Well let's see. The attack occurred (one guess) on September 11th...

We had an Ambassador at Benghazi in the midst of crazed Islamists with a deliberately reduced security detail, no naval assets in the area, no in-extremis force assigned to AFRICOM, no C-130 gunships on alert status at Sigonella, etc., etc.

Did I mention it was September 11th? What could possibly go wrong?

Forget about after the fact. The state of affairs before the fact is shit-for-brains spelled out in neon letters. Our teflon President and Secretary of State insist that they "did everything possible." Well, everything except for engraved invitations.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/31/2013 3:49:13 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Benghazi - 7/31/2013 6:27:53 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
Well hey we've discussed this, the democrats are rank amateurs...out of practice. That this sort of thing happened what 6-8 times under W, with nary a peep and without any house hearings...shows their real expertise at this. Republicans know cover-ups...being so good at them.

Nevermind that Nixon had to resign before being pardoned for Watergate crimes that would have given him real jail time.

Nevermind that Reagan ran Iran Contra and acquired the nickname 'the Teflon president' before I recall 5 exec. branch officials some secretaries, including the SOD, had to be pardoned or face real jail time. Not to mention getting 241 Marines killed...blown up in their barracks.

Nevermind the outing of Valarie Plame a CIA field agent, where Bush/Cheney swung a dead cat and hit 'Scooter' Libby to be the fall guy serve time and leave Cheney livid at W for not what...issuing yet another pardon, leaving Libby to do...real jail time.

You want the real experts at this in the whitehouse...vote republican. On second thought...maybe not.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Benghazi - 7/31/2013 6:34:58 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


Do any of you cooks and latrine cleaners have any experience in military arts after basic?




Right. We should be getting our guidance on military matters from lifer E-6's, who spent their last 10 years supervising urination formations...

There is a nifty trick they practice out at China Lake sometimes, where supersonic fighters come over at about 500-650 feet above the ground, and break every goddamn window for miles with the sonic boom. Makes the fucking savages shit their panties, without dropping a thing off the airplane.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda, didn't, but hey, let's make sure we keep that movie guy locked up.



There are no lifer E-6s, even 40 years ago, there was up or out.

as to the other:
Savages? Shit their pants, sonic boom? Laughable asswipe. Everyone knows what a sonic boom is. It might confuse them for as much as two seconds, but they are not gonna run down the street for a mile. And that little trick aint gonna work twice. So, fly 2 hours, shit their pants (not) with a sonic boom. That would have saved who exactly?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Benghazi - 7/31/2013 7:15:14 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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Groundswell: A Secret Tape Reveals How It Lobbied Boehner and Issa on Benghazi

As Mother Jones revealed last week, Groundswell, the hush-hush right-wing strategy group partly led by Ginni Thomas, the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, wanted to hype the Benghazi tragedy into a full-fledged scandal for the Obama administration, as part of its "30 front war" on the president and progressives. A secret audio tape of one of Groundswell's weekly meetings shows that prominent members of the group pressed House Speaker John Boehner and Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), the chair of the House oversight committee, to expand the Benghazi investigation and make this supposed scandal a top-priority for congressional Republicans. This recording indicates Groundswell's mission extends beyond message coordination to scandal-stoking. The tape has been posted at Crooks and Liars, a progressive web site, and it captured the first 20 minutes of Groundswell's May 8 meeting. (The site does not say how the recording was obtained.) The meeting opened with a prayer ("Father, we thank you for the opportunity to gather here as free Americans"), and a roll call was taken. Among those present were former GOP Rep. Allen West, Frank Gaffney of the Center for Security Policy, Jerry Boykin of the Family Research Council, Tom Fitton of Judicial Watch, Stephen Bannon of Breitbart News, and Ginni Thomas. Catherine Engelbrecht, a founder of True the Vote, led the meeting, and the first order of business was a report on the Benghazi controversy from Boykin and Gaffney. The pair reported on meetings they had held the previous night with Boehner and Issa. The two Groundswellers had encouraged the lawmakers to set up a special committee to investigate the attacks on the US facilities in Benghazi. Boykin, according to the recording, noted that Boehner had said he wanted the process "to play out" first, apparently meaning that he wasn't yet ready to step up the GOP Benghazi campaign. Boehner, Boykin recounted, had expressed the concern that were he to create such a committee, the media would cover it as a political stunt designed to bring down Obama. Boykin, a retired general and Christian fundamentalist who caused a dust-up in 2003 when he gave a speech (while still on active duty) saying that his god was "a real god" and Allah was an "idol," told the Groundswellers that he expected the Benghazi matter to blossom into a full-blown scandal: "We've got an ugly baby here and it's going to get uglier." He maintained that "we're going to find...a huge deception." Gaffney, a birther who has been booted out of several conservative outfits for his fiercely anti-Islam views and who has accused Obama of "submission to Islam," added, "I'm somewhat encouraged that they're taking this thing very much to heart and we really impressed upon [Boehner] that there's a lot of restiveness on the part of folks like us, and some of their donors as a matter of fact, about what's happening here." In other words, Boykin and Gaffney were issuing something of a warning to Boehner and Issa: Go hard on Benghazi or risk losing financial and grassroots support. After the two were done, Bannon, the executive chairman of Breitbart News, counseled fellow Groundswellers on how they should handle the Benghazi controversy. Don't mention impeachment of Hillary Clinton, he cautioned, for that would only politicize the issue and "hurt the goal" of establishing a special congressional committee. Then Engelbrecht added, "I think they have all the notes on Benghazi. Let's move ahead. "As of yet, Boykin, Gaffney, and the other Groundswellers have not gotten the special Benghazi committee they wanted. But the recording shows that Groundswell has access to the top leaders of the GOP, and its reps are not reluctant to pressure those pols.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/07/groundswell-secret-tape-boehner-issa-benghazi


http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/groundswell-group-plotted-scandals-congress

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Benghazi - 7/31/2013 7:34:57 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Well let's see. The attack occurred (one guess) on September 11th...

We had an Ambassador at Benghazi in the midst of crazed Islamists with a deliberately reduced security detail, no naval assets in the area, no in-extremis force assigned to AFRICOM, no C-130 gunships on alert status at Sigonella, etc., etc.

K.


It WAS 9/11, since we have embassies and consulates all over the Middle East, North Africa, and Indonesia that might be targeted, we just might have been, stretched thin. A major tenet of guerilla warfare is to aviod well defended targets and attack weak ones, they got lucky.

Again, all of this begs the question of WHY? If, as some claim, we had hard evidence this was going to happen, or that we "forced" people to stand down, it makes no sense. Terrorist attacks boost sitting presidents, they don't lower numbers.

Its why PNAC wanted their "pearl harbor type event" so they could rally support for invading Iraq.

Look at raygun's numbers after the 241 marines died in beirut because they were not allowed to have ammo and had their magazines taped shut.







< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 7/31/2013 7:35:19 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Benghazi - 7/31/2013 8:36:13 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

How many times do I have to tell you this ferry range is of no use as it represents a plane fitted with nothing but droptanks and no weapons. What matters is combat radius and your own sources say that even a minimally loaded F-16 cannot make the trip without tanker support which greatly increases the amount of time before the planes, which couldn't have done anything useful anyway, got there.



You can keep telling me as many times as you want -- and I will keep saying its a pile of shit because people with better brains than you say you're wrong. And they have facts on their side - as opposed to you who are just offering an opinion in the hopes of obfuscating.

I live near an airbase - there are always a squad of fighters on active alert. Ferrying F-16's to sigonella would take 2 hours, including readying the crew. Hotflash reloads take 1.08 hours. Again, per the previously quoted ACTUAL F-16 pilot.

Another hour from Sigonella to Benghazi. A little bit more than 4 hours. MORE THAN adequate to save daugherty and woods. Fight started at 9:16pm. This puts them on station at 1:30 am. The guy hit by the mortar was killed shortly after 5am. And the ambassador was proclaimed dead after 3 am.

So yes - even ferrying planes you can rescue two people possibly three. Exposing the bald faced lie by the adminstration that there were no assets in range. The hell there wasn't.

Since when does a USN airbase that does not have any F-18's stationed carry weapons that will fit on a F-16? The only combat aircraft stationed there are AC-130's and they don't carry the sort of munitions that go under a F-16. So the ferry to Sigonella and rearm is simply not feasible.

The only way to do this would have been to get a tanker fueled up and on station somewhere over the med, send the F-16's down to it, refuel and deliver the strike which puts the whole operation at least 5 hours and that assumes no delay in formulating a plan and getting air crews back on base.

And here's the kicker, what would a F-16 do once on station? The security contractors were killed by the 2nd and 3rd mortar rounds fired from a mortar no one could see. How would the F-16's stop that? Cluster bombing the friendly community around the CIA compound? Free fall unguided bombs? What? This fantasy that the attackers would disperse after a flyover is ludicrous. These guys had taken a lot of casualties and kept at it.

Do you have any idea what an ac-130 can do?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Benghazi - 7/31/2013 9:07:29 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
It cannot bring men back to life.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 160
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