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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 5:13:14 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

^ we are not the UK.

We do not have the speech restriction that youns do--- not yet- and hopefully never.


Do you really believe that shit ? You really need to read some of your own laws on the topic.

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 5:15:15 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

^ we are not the UK.

We do not have the speech restriction that youns do--- not yet- and hopefully never.

Where on earth did you get the idea that we have speech restrictions??

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 5:15:17 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		I do believe it and thats the truth.

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 5:17:38 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I do believe it and thats the truth.

Well, that settles it then.

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 5:19:32 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I do believe it and thats the truth.


There is no hope for you then. There is a major difference between freedom of speech and hate speech. I would have expected you to at least get that.

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 5:25:05 PM   
Wendel27


Posts: 162
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Status: offline 		 America has similar laws with regards to free speach as the U.K.

I would be very surprised however to find out that a man responsible for upholding laws without fear or favour can make videos deriding vast swathes of those he protects as retards, while displaying a tshirt saying that liberals ''take it up the ass'' is not in breach of his obligations to his employer. If he made a video saying black people are cunts I can't imagine that anyone would defend his position. He has brought the police force into disrepute with  his actions...irrespective of any cowering defence behind free speach.

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 5:26:13 PM   
Wendel27


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Status: offline 		Speech even.

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 5:27:16 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

-However, there is another factor the courts have taken into consideration, and it is where Vincent's statement falls short. The other exception to speech by public employees and the first amendment is in the ability to do their job effectively and to promote a positive image of the government. This has been upheld by both state and federal courts, and it applies in this case. A public employee serves the public good, not just his/her own interests, and in doing so needs to maintain an image for himself and for the position he is in, of fairness and working for the whole public. If a private belief clashes with this the right to express that or act on those beliefs is limited by what is in the good of the department and the public good.

Lauren raises two interesting exceptions to Constitutional protection for public employee speech: 1) ability to do the job effectively, and 2) good public image.

By 1967 The Court took the position that public employment cannot be conditioned on a surrender of constitutional rights. The problem for the Court then became how to balance the government's interest in maintaining an efficient public workplace against the individual employee's interest in free expression.

In Pickering In ordering the teacher reinstated, the Court found that a public employee's statements on a matter of public concern could not be the basis for discharge unless the statement contained knowing or reckless falsehoods, or the statements were of the sort to cause a substantial interference with the ability of the employee to continue to do his job.

Does "substantial interference" come into play here? Not according to the grounds for action against Kessler given by this small town board IMO. He was suspended for using Township property.

in Mt. Healthy v Doyle Doyle was fired for reasons other than complaining to a call-in radio program. SCOTUS remanded the case to determine if Doyle would have been fired absent the free speech protection. If so he would be out of luck.

Gilberton suspended Kessler for improper use of town property. All they would have to show is they had grounds for suspenson absent the speech issue. IMO Kessler would lose.

Please notice that in both Pickering and Doyle the employees identified themselves as school teachers. Seems to me Kessler is not in jeapordy for identifying himself as a police chief.

That leaves us with Lauren's second issue: the public employee has a duty to maintain a good public image. It would not surprise me if a state law or town ordinance demanding such a duty would be upheld by SCOTUS but I was not able to find a case. Maybe Lauren can supply one on point. This reminds me of the old morals clauses. Again Gilberton Township did not raise this as an issue . . . yet.

The Township of Gilberton school board has deftly danced around the protected speech issue IMO.


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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 5:27:27 PM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		free speech was not set in place to talk about the weather. it is in place to talk about things that are uncomfortable to people.


The UK has stricter libel laws then the US. People sue there for things that are said-- and here very few people bother as it only goes so far in the courts. When Alex went to bilderburger- guess what? He could say things that a Brit can not say... as if he were to be sued it would have to be in American courts, not the UK. How does this make you feel that a foreigner has more rights then you do?

We are all created equal.

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 5:34:22 PM   
Wendel27


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Status: offline 		''How does this make you feel that a foreigner has more rights then you do? ''

Yes of course and our gun laws mean that people are mown down on an hourly basis in bloodbaths as only the criminals are armed!...Hysterics rarely  makes for powerful logic.


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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 5:35:55 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Hysterics rarely  makes for powerful logic.

I may need to borrow that for my signature file.

_____________________________

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 5:37:28 PM   
Wendel27


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Status: offline 		 I'd consider it a very deep compliment D.C. !

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 5:39:23 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

''How does this make you feel that a foreigner has more rights then you do? ''

Yes of course and our gun laws mean that people are mown down on an hourly basis in bloodbaths as only the criminals are armed!...Hysterics rarely  makes for powerful logic.





Do you realize how armed the block I live on is?

No one gets shot. ...and no one invades us either.

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 5:40:19 PM   
Wendel27


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Joined: 5/5/2013
Status: offline 		 Unlike where I live where clearly people are shot all the time...inbetween invasions.

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 5:45:31 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
Do you realize how armed the block I live on is?

No one gets shot. ...and no one invades us either.

And there you have it.
Forced to live in a prison with armed guards to protect yourselves.

We don't need such extreme measures to be safe.
Guns just aren't "normal" in our society.
We got shot of that stupid law decades ago [pun intended].

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 6:18:29 PM   
metamorfosis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The Garcetti ruling says that a public employee may be disciplined for statements made pursuant to their duties. Since he publicly states he will use the power of his office to prevent any gun control laws from being enforced he can certainly be fired for that. He can also be fired for his t shirt where he encourages the rape of liberals on a video with his job title as part of the title. Furthermore his employment contract almost certainly contains a clause allowing him to be fired for embarrassing the town (a so called morals clause) so he can likely be fired simply for the bad publicity he has brought to the community.


Then they're going about this the wrong way. Firing him for any of the above would make infinitely more sense than firing him for misusing their equipment or title.

< Message edited by metamorfosis -- 8/3/2013 6:20:40 PM >

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 6:34:08 PM   
Extravagasm


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quote:

RealOne post 65: of course you realize this violates due process yes?

Very minor point here, RealOne. Due process only comes into job loss, when that particular job entails a property right. For example jobs that carry tenure or other certified holdings. At-will jobs lack property rights. Even elected positions do not necessarily inure property rights.
Of course employment contracts may have rights, but they are contract rights, not property rights. Therefore enforceable thru contract mechanisms (arbitration, court readings) not subject to due process.
Fortunately due process isn't the make or break point in this case anyway.

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 6:51:59 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
Do you realize how armed the block I live on is?

No one gets shot. ...and no one invades us either.

And there you have it.
Forced to live in a prison with armed guards to protect yourselves.

We don't need such extreme measures to be safe.
Guns just aren't "normal" in our society.
We got shot of that stupid law decades ago [pun intended].




yeh we have been down that road several times before, we just shoot em dead insuring they will no longer commit violent crime while you all do not have guns and have more violent crime. btdtb5tshirts

_____________________________

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 6:56:15 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
Do you realize how armed the block I live on is?

No one gets shot. ...and no one invades us either.

And there you have it.
Forced to live in a prison with armed guards to protect yourselves.

We don't need such extreme measures to be safe.
Guns just aren't "normal" in our society.
We got shot of that stupid law decades ago [pun intended].




yeh we have been down that road several times before, we just shoot em dead insuring they will no longer commit violent crime while you all do not have guns and have more violent crime. btdtb5tshirts



oh there you are being "whimsical" again.... LOL ;-)

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RE: Is this free speech? - 8/3/2013 7:15:43 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: metamorfosis

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
No question he is a disgrace and I abhor his comments but being a disgrace does not leave a public employee's Constitutional speech unprotected as per the cases I cited above.


He appropriated their equipment. He appropriated their uniform. He appropriated their title. He is not merely speaking as a private citizen.



so they cease being in the capacity of private citizen when they state the title or office they hold?


When you work for an employer in general you give up rights, but when you work for a public agency there are limits to the free speech you have, it comes with taking the job. Public officials are in a sensitive position, where the trust of the people is important, and statements that give any kind doubt as to the way the person performs their duties is valid reason to limit speech.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 100
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