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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 8:16:18 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
Did you vote for him (Obama)? Are you even in the USA? It is so strange to me. In 2008, I did vote for him. I voted for him to stop all of the things which have expanded under this administration. What is the most fascinating to me. I can remember protesting with fellow democrats at the RNCs or other "BushConventions" 2001 - 2006. We protested Bush for the same things Obama is doing. Yet, where have all my democratic friends gone? It is a fascinating partisan shuffle. I really can not explain it. Other than? They were never against any of the things I thought they were. They were just against "The Other""

That's because Americans have stopped actually caring about running the country and instead have turned politics into a team sport. You gotta root for your team don't you know. I don't think very many Americans actually care about any issue as much as they care about their team color.


True, although it should be noted that a sizable percentage of the electorate is registered as independent, so not every American is so strictly partisan. But for whatever reason, third-party and independent candidates rarely amount to anything.

It's true that the media cover elections much the same way they cover professional sports, although I actually believe that many Americans still do care about running the country and the issues facing us. But some may have grown cynical and would argue that they're voting for the lesser of two evils. They believe that voting for an independent or third-party candidate would be wasting their vote, so they invariably end up choosing either a Republican or Democrat. Much of the electorate is also older and somewhat set in their ways, so people vote in familiar patterns and end up stuck in a rut.

I think both political parties have fossilized somewhat, at both the establishment level as well as among the core membership. They just say the same things over and over again.

They're just like Hollywood producers. They can't think of any new ideas, so they keep coming out with remakes, which the gullible public laps up like milk served to kittens.

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 8:43:35 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I agree completely, although if the politicians in this country are hellbent on implementing a government tyranny, a few words written on a piece of paper aren't going to stop them. If they find loopholes and ways around the system of checks and balances, then clever government lawyers and judges can get license to do whatever they want and still be able to claim that they're upholding everyone's Constitutional rights (at least on paper anyway).

Well hell, man. What makes you think there is a cabal of politicians who are hellbent on implementing a government tyranny? Maybe the danger, if there is one, lies with groups outside the government who would overthrow it in the name of patriotism and liberty. How can we know what is in the hearts of people inside or outside the government, and what is the "government" anyway but a big catchall for many parts working often at cross purposes in a checks and balance system. Railing at the GOVERNMENT is blowing gas out the ass into the wind.

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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 8:53:46 AM   
vincentML


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Because really, at it's heart, it's a painfully niave statement based on the concept that the government, our lovely little government that's never seen a right they haven't trampled or a law they haven't smashed, won't frame/railroad an innocent person.
Which is a complete crock because it happens all the time.

Yes, it happens all the time. At all levels. Federal, state, and municipal. History is filled with injustice, dude. There is nothing new in that. And there is no legislative solution. No structural change will ever solve the issue of injustice. That is why we rely upon a non-suckass press and other outside watchdog and activist groups like the Inncence Project. Face it, the only substitute for government is anarchy ~ dog eat dog, everyman for himself, power to the powerful. No government will ever be perfect as long as people are seduced by greed and power, and they always will be. We can be vigilant and raise voices at injustice. However, let's not be Luddites and quiver at every new technology.

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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 10:48:16 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I agree completely, although if the politicians in this country are hellbent on implementing a government tyranny, a few words written on a piece of paper aren't going to stop them. If they find loopholes and ways around the system of checks and balances, then clever government lawyers and judges can get license to do whatever they want and still be able to claim that they're upholding everyone's Constitutional rights (at least on paper anyway).


Well hell, man. What makes you think there is a cabal of politicians who are hellbent on implementing a government tyranny?


I was just speaking hypothetically, playing a bit of "what if." I'd like to think that our rights are more important than just a bunch of words on a piece of paper under the stewardship of lawyers and politicians, but sometimes, it seems like that's what we're stuck with. We speak of checks and balances, but I think it's a valid question to ask whether they've proven strong enough in today's political climate. Do we need stronger guarantees for our rights? Do we need even more checks and balances built into the system to prevent abuse?

quote:


Maybe the danger, if there is one, lies with groups outside the government who would overthrow it in the name of patriotism and liberty.


If you're talking about that kind of danger, then my guess is that there's more than one, and each would have their own special little reason for wanting to overthrow the government. I don't see that those groups have any wide following or strong support, no matter where they might reside on the political spectrum. The only way they might gain strength is if the government just implodes somehow.

No healthy government is ever overthrown, so as long as the government can remain healthy enough and strong enough, then it will survive. So, no matter how you slice it, if there is any danger of the government being overthrown, then the ultimate problem still rests within government, and that's what still has to be addressed.

quote:


How can we know what is in the hearts of people inside or outside the government, and what is the "government" anyway but a big catchall for many parts working often at cross purposes in a checks and balance system.

Railing at the GOVERNMENT is blowing gas out the ass into the wind.


Governments are comprised of human beings, and our own government is made of millions of workers led by politicians, lawyers, bureaucrats, and judges. Every tyranny or major upheaval seems to have certain common characteristics about the governments that were overthrown. Entrenched politicians and bureaucrats with a lot of clout, influence peddling, infighting, corruption, political intrigue - all getting so tangled and rotted while the economy sputters and the people become more discontented. What's inside their hearts may be of secondary importance as opposed to the general culture of inertia and complacency which seems to exist within government today.

I don't say that all government workers are the same or that they're even bad people. Even if we assume that they all have good intentions and are doing the right thing, the organization itself may be inefficient and poorly managed, and that in and of itself can have consequences. I think that's actually the bigger danger here, since it hampers the government from adequately operating and serving the country's interests, which will increase discontentment and play right into the hands of the extremists.

I think these are legitimate concerns. It's not so much "railing against the government" as much as it is addressing some of the more problematic systemic issues within the structure of the organization itself. It's not like people are yelling at a building or a brick wall (although it sometimes might feel that way when dealing with the government). It's the organization itself, the structure, the hierarchy, the role of politicians versus the role of bureaucrats, lobbyists and their influence, the judicial branch, the military, the intelligence community, and a whole host of bureaus and departments and employees far-flung across the country.

But when people talk about "the government" (or "gummint" as some people like to say), I think it's generally understood that they're talking about those at a certain level of established power within their own political party hierarchies. I think it's referring to the quality and structure of the organization itself, how well it's managed, and whether those who lead that organization are in touch with the needs of all the people. The government is not some invisible phantom. It really does exist, so when people are railing against it, they're railing against an organization made up of flesh-and-blood human beings who are seen as a bunch of incompetent, lazy screw-ups.

In the same sense, people might rail against their favorite baseball team if they keep losing ball games. I'm not going to accuse anyone of throwing the game (as some people might), but if the scoreboard says they lost, then they lost. It counts against the team, no matter what excuses they might give. Railing against the government is kind of the same thing. It's railing against "the team" for dropping the ball too many times.




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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 7:55:52 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Well hell, man. What makes you think there is a cabal of politicians who are hellbent on implementing a government tyranny?

The news.

quote:

How can we know what is in the hearts of people inside or outside the government,

The news... and by comparing their actual deeds to their words.

quote:

and what is the "government" anyway but a big catchall for many parts working often at cross purposes in a checks and balance system.

ROFL... so wait... the government doesn't exist?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 9:41:09 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24


quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

That is a very tough call.
I have children and would love for them not to be exposed to all the illegal drugs out there, if its gone ( hardy har har) completely I have no worries of them going down a path I escaped from, the things I did I am very lucky to be alive. One less concern as a parent. One less concern of a high individual doing something they normally wouldn't do, destroying their life, and others llif es because of availability of these things. If they aren't there, they are not misused or missed.
On the other hand, these kind of liberties given are often times given to people who can take that info, take revenge for their own purposes, and destroy someone out of agendas of deleting them from taking a stand against them. Some people will do anything to win or hold a position.
What we chose to do in our own homes, as private individuals, without harm to others, is nobodies business. So it does get concerning when this kind of invasion is taking place, depends on the agenda, and who is invading. Is it for the good or is it for the dirt. You are going to get both kind of people.



We have tangible evidence, leaked/stolen documents, court rulings, FOIA, ex generals, ex-IC every living whistle blower on the planet. Experts attorneys and the list goes on. This is for the dirt. It is a well established fact. The only individuals at this point in time who are supporting it are ones with ties to the military, contractors or IC themselves. Some politicians who have knowing lied about it already, for good reason they must continue to lie - no one wants to get caught. In some smaller cases people who have friends/family in such positions support it.

There really is no intelligent discussion any of this is being done to help us - especially combat drugs LOL


I have no ties to the military, other then knowing a few good men who fought. If finding a huge shipment of drugs that were discussed over the telephone is stopped by the government that were to be distributed for kids, criminals, etc is stopped in this way I think its a great thing. It is no secret we hear more of the bad things in life, because people thrive on drama. A lot of good things are done in secret, but you don't hear about those as often, because there is nothing to complain about. If a terrorist attack is stopped by this process, thank your lucky stars for that. Its possible it could be directed at your block or someone you loves backyard.

I have nothing to hide, so I am less concerned over it. Considering your signature "Lets do something criminal" You might have more to worry about. LOL. Just kidding with ya.


Don't be so sure, you think you have nothing to hide. There is a reason our constitution has protections that involve warrants, so that law enforcement can't go on fishing expeditions. What the DEA is doing is bypassing warrants, this whole data collection program, including surveillance of cell phones, is being done with warrants (FISA is a joke), and the Patriot act inherently forbid evidence found from these intercepts being used in criminal prosecution, yet that is what they are doing, they are basically throwing away search warrants.

You might think you have nothing to hide, but give someone broad powers like this, and a grudge against you, and watch what happens. These powers were granted to stop imminent terrorism threats, where getting traditional warrants would take too long, but what they are doing is using this evidence for ordinary criminal investigations. I have no problems using this to stop terrorism, but the problem is, as this shows, is that the minute you give this kind of power, it gets abused.If you believe in the good will of the people using this, bless you, because the one rule on all this is when given it, they will take it and abuse it Remember J.Edgar Homo errr Hoover, and his secret files, used to blackmail politicians? Remember the CIA, spying on Americans because they were anti war? All quite illegal, but quite real as well.

Sure, it sounds good, you catch shipments of drugs, you catch drug felons, it sounds really good.....but is it worth the other side? People who are speaking out, fighting what they see as injustice, blackmailed into staying silent? The very threat of this data surveillance used to scare people? You say you have nothing to hide, what if your posts on here suddenly started getting sent around with proof you sent it, would you feel the same way? People all have something to hide, not necessarily crimes, but things they don't want people to know. Law and Order conservatives have been bitching about miranda rights and the like for years, they think the good ole days where cops beat confessions out of people was a good thing (of course, the person they hit was guilty...right *snort*), and this is their panacea, get rid of inconvenient rights and run the country the way it should be...and if you think you won't see things like some douchebag like an Ashcroft or Santorum if you got them into power wouldn't use this to harass gay rights groups and the likes, I have a bridge to sell you..and yes, this also can be used by the dark side,someone wanting to make a couple of million dollars, like a Snowden with bad intentions, could collect information from these sources and sell it to drug cartels, to blackmail government and law enforcment, think that is great? Ole J.Edgar claimed that organized crime didn't exist, until the 1960's they had one person on organized crime, and want to know why? Because they had evidence of Hoover being gay, and used it (put it this way, when the Valachi Papers were published, the FBI looked really stupid).

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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 9:43:21 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
I really can not explain it. Other than? They were never against any of the things I thought they were. They were just against "The Other" ?


Sadly, that's probably the greatest truth there is in US politics anymore.

Candidate Obama (circa 2008) said he was going to change politics in Washington. He did. He changed them from the R's spending, spending, spending, to the D's spending, spending, spending.

The party not in power is against most of the stuff the party in power is for, until they become the party in power. At that point, the roles reverse.


You and I don't usually agree on much, but that one is true, when they get elected, get the power, and then everything is keeping that power and using it. Expecting this incredible power of data mining and warrantless searches to be used carefully is a joke; put it this way, the obama administration has done more to harass people, searching out people giving information to the media and such, then shrub and Nixon combined.

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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 9:48:55 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I think about it this way. I'm not a threat. I'm not a terrorist. I'm not a drug dealer or a smuggler. I have no criminal record, and even my driving record is spotless over the past five years. So, any government agency or police official would be absolutely wasting their time and the taxpayers' money by taking even the slightest interest in me or what I do. If they're wasting their time with little ol' me, then that means that someone they should be watching might slip through the net.

It is unlikely you would pop up in the metadata then. The staff of analysts is so limited you would hardly get a glance. The net you refer to lacks the efficency so many credit in their fears.

If that was true then why would the DEA be using this information. By the way, I have people I work with who are experts on this kind of data mining, the metadata you dismiss, and what they said is you can get a pretty accurate picture of who someone is just from that data..and then use that to targert direct data mining. This is sophisticated profiling, this isn't someone listening on phone calls through a tap falling asleep, this is very sophisticated profiling and search. Obama can claim there is nothing to worry about, but everything I have heard and seen makes me feel like he is lying through his teeth. He may have all the good intentions in the world, but either he is believing a load of bull, or knows and doesn't care because he is so scared he is willing to let the NSA and the rest do what they want. The man is a constitutional expert, yet he can sit there and hear that the NSA and other law enforcement agencies are using data gotten without wiretaps in criminal cases, and isn't blinking? Something is way, way wrong. This data mining was supposed to be about national security, not finding drug dealers and pimps and prostitutes and cigarette smugglers and such...

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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 9:49:02 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
but is it worth the other side? People who are speaking out, fighting what they see as injustice, blackmailed into staying silent? The very threat of this data surveillance used to scare people?

There are already quite a few conversations that I will only have over secure channels. That means face to face or over known good encrypted links.

There was a post on reddit.. I think I posted it here already. This post was from a person living in a country where such surveillance is common place. He described quite clearly how it was used, why, and the effects. And his descriptions were vivid, personal, and visceral. And the kind of crap his little country could do pales in comparison to what Obama is doing (and Bush before him, etc.)

quote:

Something is way, way wrong.

Game of Thrones taught me that there's nothing wrong. Daddy Lannister is doing what such men have always done. Power is the name of the game.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 8/6/2013 9:50:58 PM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 9:54:46 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
You are just figuring out now that both parties are evil???



Don't mistake your just now figuring out than millions of Americans knew this decades before you did as them 'just now figuring it out.'

It just re-plays in different circumstances is all.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 8/6/2013 9:56:25 PM >

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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 10:05:34 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Was this thread about the government bringing serious criminals to justice, by the means of technology? Or was it about individuals taking showers or watching TV at night with their family with the curtains drawn?

Staying on topic here "Nothing to hide" is referring to living an honest life. We are not cheating on our taxes, we are not extorting money from others, we are not planning bombings nor murders. We are not beating our wives or husbands or children, we are not purchasing nor using illegal drugs, we are not selling or receiving stolen goods, we try to be good people, love our neighbors, be helpful to those in need, believe in others having the right to live the way they want, have the faith they want, the gender they chose, even if we don't agree with it. Its bout being positive and having faith in the system, and the people positioned to protect. Its about praying to a Higher power to lead and guide their way, and for those corrupt to be exposed. There is a lot of power in that, but there is no power in paranoia. negativity,threats, no faith in your own country, and being guided by your own will, instead of a greater one.
We pose no threat to the government, they couldn't care less what we are doing. Excuse me I think I will draw the shades, and lock the door so I can shower now.


There are two sections of this that I think show the problem with your statement, and why it is so dangerous.

-You talk about people being able to live the way they want, yet though not illegal, the very technology you are talking about can allow others to out others in what they do, can be used to make their life miserable. You think the religious right, someone like an Ashcroft or *gag* Rick Santorum, would think twice about using data like this to go after people they didn't like, to harass gay rights groups, to try and force their idea on others? Remember, Chatter, those 'good people of the government' in Texas had laws that snooped in people's bedrooms and put them in jail for having sex.....

for those corrupt to be exposed. ...what is those that are corrupt are the ones using this information? You claim it is best to believe that those using this power are going to do the right thing, but have you read history? Do you think Hoover or the CIA in the 60's were doing the right thing? There is an old expression that insanity is time and again seeing how something happens, yet believing that someone, the next time, it will be different....

-"we pose no threat to the government"...that is an interesting statement. First of all, what about people who use their right to protest, to change things? You read recently about the IRS, for example, that has been used to get political opponents, and therein lies a fact..the government wants people they don't have to be afraid of, and how do they do that? By making clear they can get you, anytime, anywhere. In the USSR most people were docile because they were afraid, that the GRU, their next door neighbor, anyone could report them,hurt them and their family, and they kept the people docile for over 70 years.....those who pose no threat to the government are generally people who also sit back and let the government do what they want..any person can be a threat to the government, or the people in power, and these kinds of tools are often used to silence people.

We are a long way from the USSR, but the point is that this information is a major tool to keep people in line if they want to use it, and right now we have a tool with no safeguards on it. Among other things, as people point out, most of this crap is being done by contractors, who is going to make sure that a Snowden type, let's say some born again jerk off, doesn't try to use this data to try and silence atheists or gay rights leaders? And you may laugh, but several of the right wing Christian schools in this country, including BYU, and places far crazier, in their computer science departments have programs for information analysis like we are talking about, and in some cases, is being done specifically to find ways to use data to force their idea of America on everyone else, they see it as war...so put the right bible thumper from bob jones university in some contractors spot at the NSA, and guess what.....

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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 10:09:29 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn
I can remember protesting with fellow democrats at the RNCs or other "BushConventions" 2001 - 2006. We protested Bush for the same things Obama is doing. Yet, where have all my democratic friends gone? It is a fascinating partisan shuffle. I really can not explain it. Other than? They were never against any of the things I thought they were. They were just against "The Other" ?


Yes, this is something that I realized back in the 1980s. I was influenced greatly during my formative years by the political protests and cultural shifts taking place in the late 1960s and 70s - and even felt somewhat optimistic and hopeful about the future. But as I reached adulthood in the 1980s (during the Reagan era), I began to become more and more frustrated with the Democrats, even though I still supported the party. The spirit of protest and political activism that characterized the 1960s seemed to fall by the wayside during the materialistic and hedonistic 80s, with heavier drug use which brought about Reagan's escalation of the "war on drugs."


Some of us recall that in the late '60s the majority of the protests were against "the establishment," including both parties. The riots at the '68 Democratic convention in Chicago, e.g. would testify to that.

As far as the 'War on Drugs,' you've got it backwards. The harsher penalties preceded the increase in greater use of 'hard' drugs. The Hippies had learned the harsh lessons themselves and had pretty much narrowed it down to pot and LSD and mushrooms. But after the harsher penalties Reagan started importing all that cocaine ... at the same time as privatizing the prison system.

What a freak of coincidence.

From Reagan, the bar for an administration or a congress doing anything that had anything at all to do with what the citizenry actually wanted, vs. what the corporations wanted, was set so low that all a Democrat had to do was nitpick about some minor detail, take his/her contributions from the financial industry, and collectively do the PR to make themselves look like saviors.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 8/6/2013 10:28:02 PM >

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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 10:18:15 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I agree completely, although if the politicians in this country are hellbent on implementing a government tyranny, a few words written on a piece of paper aren't going to stop them. If they find loopholes and ways around the system of checks and balances, then clever government lawyers and judges can get license to do whatever they want and still be able to claim that they're upholding everyone's Constitutional rights (at least on paper anyway).

Well hell, man. What makes you think there is a cabal of politicians who are hellbent on implementing a government tyranny? Maybe the danger, if there is one, lies with groups outside the government who would overthrow it in the name of patriotism and liberty. How can we know what is in the hearts of people inside or outside the government, and what is the "government" anyway but a big catchall for many parts working often at cross purposes in a checks and balance system. Railing at the GOVERNMENT is blowing gas out the ass into the wind.

It doesn't take a cabal, it often takes people who otherwise think they are doing the right thing, to create a police state that they never intended. It starts with fear of terrorism, and they justify phone taps without warrants and data searches on the basis of national safety; but then, they talk of the threat of drug trafficking, so they say let's use it for that; someone else decides that people running cigarettes illegally are a problem; someone else decides that people are buying stuff off the internet and not paying taxes they should report, you get the idea. Yes, it is the old slippery slope idea, but time and practice have said that even things done with good intentions end up leading to trouble, because it is so easy to justify, each step is justifiable, but the chain goes on and on..and like a frog in the pot with the water getting warmer, we don't notice. The old saying the road to hell is paved with good intentions, it is quite true.

As crappy as it was, in the third Star Wars movie where Amadalah comments "Is this how freedom ends, with cheers for those taking it away" or some such, it is very true. Accepting the good intentions of others without understanding how those good intentions go astray is how we had things like the CIA experimenting on people with LSD or not treating poor black men with STD's deliberately to see what happened, all were done with good intentions but were wrong, pure and simple,and to write of all cases like this would probably fill several thousand terabyte drives to document.

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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 10:30:15 PM   
njlauren


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Status: offline 		One thought for Vincent: You said a natural answer to government cabals is the checks and balances, and that normally would be true. The problem is, what if the checks and balances are blown away? For example, a check on the police powers of the state is the search warrant, which forces them to show a judge why they have the right to search your premises, and just what they are looking for. If they are looking for a stolen car, they cannot search your cabinets, and if they do and find your stash of pot, they cannot arrest you for it, because it was a fishing expedition.

But here we are talking about data that bypasses that check and balance, it is data where they are looking at a broad swath of data to find something, in this case evidence of terrorism. But wait, now suddenly we find they are sharing it with the DEA, which last I checked is a criminal matter, and was not authorized by the Patriot Act......so where is the check and balance? So if the DEA can use, then maybe can the state tax collector wanting sales tax for items you bought on e-bay use that to track that down? The very problem is this kind of thing bypasses the checks and balances, which is why it is valuable, don't need search warrants, heck, don't even need to investigate, let the data lead me where it may, and I'll find me some criminals....the point being, what stops this when it stops rolling? Its tantamount to letting cops search and frisk anyone they feel like, any time, any place, sure, it will produce results, but at what cost, at innocent people being terrorized by those supposedly protecting them; a law and order type will say 'but we found 10 guys with guns', but to do that, they searched 500 innocent people. It is one thing to search that data for possible terorist activity, which is an immediate threat, and allow others to use that to do broad based searches for anything they want, without checks and balances. The searches were authorized specifically to prevent immediate threats, not to allow law enforcement to do wide ranging nets in the hopes of catching something and in the process hurting innocent people.

(in reply to njlauren)
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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 10:33:40 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline 		Kind of reminds of a humorous equivalent, in the 1980's the DEA decided that people must be shipping coke up the overseas highway to Key West (guess they didn't watch Miami Vice, and figure out that it was being shipped by fast boats), so they set up roadblocks to search every car travelling in/out of key west..caused massive traffic jams, it was a nightmare, and what did they get? some marijuana seeds, and a couple of Argentinian tourists who had left their passport at their hotel........Key West seceded, but never got the aid they hoped for for rebuilding after losing..

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 10:59:10 PM   
Edwynn


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If people actually have read about what Hoover did, his purpose behind it, and especially who he actually was, they wouldn't be so facile in comparing that situation to the one we have now with the NSA, etc. There IS no comparison, so speak to what we have before us at present.

I'm not at all meaning to downplay the situation of various government agencies snooping in on phone convos, but I don't know why it needs to be repeated so often that Google, MS, and the 'social networks' keep track of what we are doing much more thoroughly and in far more intrusive detail than the government does.

What worries me a lot more about the government is the on-the-ground issues, like the eroding former distinction between the local police and the national military, which the NY Times in fact had an excellent article on in today's paper. SWAT teams used to be only in the largest cities, and held in reserve for only the most serious of 'situations.'

They related in the article that nowadays SWAT teams are a part of all but very small police departments, and in some cities are routinely and habitually used to kick doors down and terrorize the household in purpose of merely serving a warrant for a minor infraction or arresting someone for a misdemeanor. Gotta justify the budget somehow, you know.

And now the TSA has expanded to terrorizing people at train and even bus stations, and then with VIPR, intruding upon any and all public events. Strip searches at the opera can't be far behind.


I know that all this listening in and getting records from what the phone and internet companies already have on you in the first place is 'bad,' but it was signed into law in the '80s that the government could steal your house and sell it at auction if somebody was snorting coke on your property.

Now THAT'S bad!






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 8/6/2013 11:40:12 PM >

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 11:55:47 PM   
FrostedFlake


Posts: 3084
Joined: 3/4/2009
From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline 		At a certain point, just which actual point is debatable and also beside the point, at a certain point, Rome became an empire. It was a republic, then suddenly it wasn't any more. It became the private property of one man. What was unusual was... that Rome was a republic.

Being a republic is still unusual. That we all have grown to maturity taking for granted certain cultural values does not suggest those values are universal. On the contrary, our highest laws are intended to control the powers of government. Why would these Laws be needed, ...if they were not needed? Forearmed is forewarned. The only bunch of guys anywhere that can actually do you harm are the same ones the Bill of Rights was written to control.

And it's not working very well.

And there is a reason.

Greed.

1% of us are sociopaths. Those guys look at the rest of us the way we look at farm animals. Naturally, for this same reason, they aspire to power. And when they have it, they use it to get more. That is what is happening. And it has been happening the whole time. Lately, it has become quite successful. What is different about now, is tools. The tools can do wonderful things. And terrible things. And the folks in charge see opportunity to use those tools to shed the restraints we put on them to protect ourselves from unrestrained power.

If you have read history, even a little, you know that most of it is about beating folks up and taking their stuff. It's an unsubtle fact that my ass is the most valuable thing I own. It may seem odd, but it is an historical fact that some people have taken others as literal property. Sometimes at the point of a sword. Other times by the offer of a job (company town), or by the pretense of scarcity (interest rates) leading to the loss of a job and everything dependent on it. Then there is the old farmer whose crop was raided by wild pigs. Far from being upset, he built a fence around them. If you take a good look around, you might notice the fence being built all the way around ALL of us.


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simul justus et peccator
Einen Liebhaber, und halten Sie die Schraube

"... evil (and hilarious) !!" Hlen5

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/6/2013 11:57:12 PM   
Edwynn


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In the aftermath of the financial debacle brought about by both parties; they shut down music classes and foreign language classes in many elementary and middle schools, aside from shutting down a whole bunch of schools even after that, but ... the sports programs remain.

Likewise, the municipalities have been forced to reduce service in public transit, which is the only way that the working poor (of which there are far more many in this country than in any other "More Developed Country" {MDC}), but... you guessed it ... The SWAT teams not only maintain but actually have their budgets continually increased.

It's no wonder so many cities are going broke.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 8/7/2013 12:00:39 AM >

(in reply to Edwynn)
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RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/7/2013 12:00:55 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
I'm not at all meaning to downplay the situation of various government agencies snooping in on phone convos, but I don't know why it needs to be repeated so often that Google, MS, and the 'social networks' keep track of what we are doing much more thoroughly and in far more intrusive detail than the government does.

THis is so wrong on so many levels that I'm rather surprised coming from you. Right for starters let's remember that google's data IS the government's data. It's pointless to draw a line between them as we all now know. Those of us tracking the program have known that for some time now. Even without tracking any particular program it's just common sense.

So the reason it needs to be repeated so often is that it's wrong and smart people ignore it.

_____________________________

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"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: DEA gets info from NSA intercepts - 8/7/2013 12:17:49 AM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
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So, if proving my point is your version of telling me I'm wrong, so be it. You can have it.

Unless you are trying to tell us that the US government did instruct/mandate/strong-arm Larry Page and Sergey Brin to come up with this (by all accounts) phenomenally difficult to attain and thoroughly wonderful search engine and the whole business model attached to it at their (the government's) behest?

ITT, IBM, etc. were certainly "government agents" (not to mention Nazi agents at some point), but that was not in the original business plan. The government(s) sought, and still seek, information from those who have it in the first place, and have developed advanced means to obtain it..

If you know the least bit about economics and the world of modern day mega-conglomerates and multi-nationals, you'd know that the tail has been wagging the dog for some time now, and that the budgets for commercial purposes can be much more specialized and concerted to a particular purpose than those of any government agency. It's a matter of 'forced outsourcing' of 'National Security,' but the private enterprises came up with all the technology and narrowed purpose (in today's world) to begin with.


Nazi Germany could tap phones all day long, but there was a reason they called upon ITT and IBM, and I think that most people know that the latter did not come about originally with the former in mind (since they existed decades before), nor at their mandate.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 8/7/2013 12:47:36 AM >

(in reply to JeffBC)
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