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I was just speaking hypothetically, playing a bit of "what if." I'd like to think that our rights are more important than just a bunch of words on a piece of paper under the stewardship of lawyers and politicians, but sometimes, it seems like that's what we're stuck with. We speak of checks and balances, but I think it's a valid question to ask whether they've proven strong enough in today's political climate. Do we need stronger guarantees for our rights? Do we need even more checks and balances built into the system to prevent abuse?

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No healthy government is ever overthrown, so as long as the government can remain healthy enough and strong enough, then it will survive. So, no matter how you slice it, if there is any danger of the government being overthrown, then the ultimate problem still rests within government, and that's what still has to be addressed.

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I think these are legitimate concerns. It's not so much "railing against the government" as much as it is addressing some of the more problematic systemic issues within the structure of the organization itself. It's not like people are yelling at a building or a brick wall (although it sometimes might feel that way when dealing with the government). It's the organization itself, the structure, the hierarchy, the role of politicians versus the role of bureaucrats, lobbyists and their influence, the judicial branch, the military, the intelligence community, and a whole host of bureaus and departments and employees far-flung across the country.

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ORIGINAL: JeffBC

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
Well hell, man. What makes you think there is a cabal of politicians who are hellbent on implementing a government tyranny?

The news.

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How can we know what is in the hearts of people inside or outside the government,

The news... and by comparing their actual deeds to their words.

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and what is the "government" anyway but a big catchall for many parts working often at cross purposes in a checks and balance system.

ROFL... so wait... the government doesn't exist?

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If that was true then why would the DEA be using this information. By the way, I have people I work with who are experts on this kind of data mining, the metadata you dismiss, and what they said is you can get a pretty accurate picture of who someone is just from that data..and then use that to targert direct data mining. This is sophisticated profiling, this isn't someone listening on phone calls through a tap falling asleep, this is very sophisticated profiling and search. Obama can claim there is nothing to worry about, but everything I have heard and seen makes me feel like he is lying through his teeth. He may have all the good intentions in the world, but either he is believing a load of bull, or knows and doesn't care because he is so scared he is willing to let the NSA and the rest do what they want. The man is a constitutional expert, yet he can sit there and hear that the NSA and other law enforcement agencies are using data gotten without wiretaps in criminal cases, and isn't blinking? Something is way, way wrong. This data mining was supposed to be about national security, not finding drug dealers and pimps and prostitutes and cigarette smugglers and such...

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It doesn't take a cabal, it often takes people who otherwise think they are doing the right thing, to create a police state that they never intended. It starts with fear of terrorism, and they justify phone taps without warrants and data searches on the basis of national safety;

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But here we are talking about data that bypasses that check and balance, it is data where they are looking at a broad swath of data to find something, in this case evidence of terrorism. But wait, now suddenly we find they are sharing it with the DEA, which last I checked is a criminal matter, and was not authorized by the Patriot Act......so where is the check and balance?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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I was just speaking hypothetically, playing a bit of "what if." I'd like to think that our rights are more important than just a bunch of words on a piece of paper under the stewardship of lawyers and politicians, but sometimes, it seems like that's what we're stuck with. We speak of checks and balances, but I think it's a valid question to ask whether they've proven strong enough in today's political climate. Do we need stronger guarantees for our rights? Do we need even more checks and balances built into the system to prevent abuse?

Look at how long it took for Blacks, women, gays, atheists, and workers to gain certain rights . . . even though those rights were at least implicit (and most explicit) in the Constituiton from the start when this country was a nation controlled by agricultural and mercantile white men. A bunch of words on a piece of paper is never a guarantee. And vigilance is always required to prevent the erosion of those rights because in history civil rights arise from changes in culture and society first, not changes in the government, which is essentially an inert mass.

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No healthy government is ever overthrown, so as long as the government can remain healthy enough and strong enough, then it will survive. So, no matter how you slice it, if there is any danger of the government being overthrown, then the ultimate problem still rests within government, and that's what still has to be addressed.

Apologies, but what you are saying is really redundant and basically ignores the effects of outside forces. The Weimar government was a strong and successful enterprise until Hindenburg assumed dictitorial powers during the 1931 Depression, as an example.

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I think these are legitimate concerns. It's not so much "railing against the government" as much as it is addressing some of the more problematic systemic issues within the structure of the organization itself. It's not like people are yelling at a building or a brick wall (although it sometimes might feel that way when dealing with the government). It's the organization itself, the structure, the hierarchy, the role of politicians versus the role of bureaucrats, lobbyists and their influence, the judicial branch, the military, the intelligence community, and a whole host of bureaus and departments and employees far-flung across the country.

Agreed. It is complicated. And you give only a passing mention to Banks and other Corporate forces. The term 'lobbyists' doesn't even come close to the influence of Big Money applied outside of the government.

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The 'organization, the structure, the hierarchy' is fluid. A mass of historical jello. Change comes from culture and society, not from jello.

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That is why I laugh at bumper sticker slogans. Mindless discourse. Not meaning by you. Rather, the anti-government hysteria on these Boards.

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ORIGINAL: njlauren

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ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Was this thread about the government bringing serious criminals to justice, by the means of technology? Or was it about individuals taking showers or watching TV at night with their family with the curtains drawn?

Staying on topic here "Nothing to hide" is referring to living an honest life. We are not cheating on our taxes, we are not extorting money from others, we are not planning bombings nor murders. We are not beating our wives or husbands or children, we are not purchasing nor using illegal drugs, we are not selling or receiving stolen goods, we try to be good people, love our neighbors, be helpful to those in need, believe in others having the right to live the way they want, have the faith they want, the gender they chose, even if we don't agree with it. Its bout being positive and having faith in the system, and the people positioned to protect. Its about praying to a Higher power to lead and guide their way, and for those corrupt to be exposed. There is a lot of power in that, but there is no power in paranoia. negativity,threats, no faith in your own country, and being guided by your own will, instead of a greater one.
We pose no threat to the government, they couldn't care less what we are doing. Excuse me I think I will draw the shades, and lock the door so I can shower now.

There are two sections of this that I think show the problem with your statement, and why it is so dangerous.

-You talk about people being able to live the way they want, yet though not illegal, the very technology you are talking about can allow others to out others in what they do, can be used to make their life miserable. You think the religious right, someone like an Ashcroft or *gag* Rick Santorum, would think twice about using data like this to go after people they didn't like, to harass gay rights groups, to try and force their idea on others? Remember, Chatter, those 'good people of the government' in Texas had laws that snooped in people's bedrooms and put them in jail for having sex.....

for those corrupt to be exposed. ...what is those that are corrupt are the ones using this information? You claim it is best to believe that those using this power are going to do the right thing, but have you read history? Do you think Hoover or the CIA in the 60's were doing the right thing? There is an old expression that insanity is time and again seeing how something happens, yet believing that someone, the next time, it will be different....

-"we pose no threat to the government"...that is an interesting statement. First of all, what about people who use their right to protest, to change things? You read recently about the IRS, for example, that has been used to get political opponents, and therein lies a fact..the government wants people they don't have to be afraid of, and how do they do that? By making clear they can get you, anytime, anywhere. In the USSR most people were docile because they were afraid, that the GRU, their next door neighbor, anyone could report them,hurt them and their family, and they kept the people docile for over 70 years.....those who pose no threat to the government are generally people who also sit back and let the government do what they want..any person can be a threat to the government, or the people in power, and these kinds of tools are often used to silence people.

We are a long way from the USSR, but the point is that this information is a major tool to keep people in line if they want to use it, and right now we have a tool with no safeguards on it. Among other things, as people point out, most of this crap is being done by contractors, who is going to make sure that a Snowden type, let's say some born again jerk off, doesn't try to use this data to try and silence atheists or gay rights leaders? And you may laugh, but several of the right wing Christian schools in this country, including BYU, and places far crazier, in their computer science departments have programs for information analysis like we are talking about, and in some cases, is being done specifically to find ways to use data to force their idea of America on everyone else, they see it as war...so put the right bible thumper from bob jones university in some contractors spot at the NSA, and guess what.....

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ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
You must trust that the people using these tools to stop the most heinous of crimes, are good.

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ORIGINAL: tj444

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ORIGINAL: Esinn
How can I block chatter?

yes... click the "Hide" button lower left hand corner..

if someone quotes her posts you will still see those tho..