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RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/9/2013 8:53:36 PM   
crossboi


Posts: 36
Joined: 1/8/2013
Status: offline 		I think you should just let people be who they want to be.

(in reply to VanillaKinkTwist)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 12:22:13 AM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		He is unhappy...that much he has flat out told me. He wants to be submissive and doesn't understand why he can't be.

_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 12:24:43 AM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		He assumes he can't and outside of me "allowing" him to he says he has never tried.

_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 12:34:49 AM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		I would like to thank those who have given both advice and opinions but I feel I need to clear up the seeming belief that I am trying to change this young man. I did not offer my opinion to him on this topic, he asked for it, and I am not one to lie or hide what I believe to be the truth.

_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 12:46:51 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain
He is unhappy...that much he has flat out told me. He wants to be submissive and doesn't understand why he can't be.

So, why not let him be a bottom, or a top, or a vanilla, for what it's worth?

I could think of a thousand things that might make a person unhappy that have nothing to do with role.

Take yourself out of the picture.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 1:09:45 AM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		Lp, really, I don't care if being a furrie makes him happy. I was looking for a polite way to give him an opinion that he asked for. As for taking myself out of the picture????? Are you suggestion that when someone asks my opinion I should just tell them to bugger off because it has nothing to do with me?

_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 1:36:51 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain
I would like to thank those who have given both advice and opinions but I feel I need to clear up the seeming belief that I am trying to change this young man. I did not offer my opinion to him on this topic, he asked for it, and I am not one to lie or hide what I believe to be the truth.

wow.. that does cloud the issue :) My apologies for the earlier misread. I hope this is at least closer to helpful.

In such situations I decide if I really respect the other person or not. If I don't then I occlude the truth in some way (and probably also cut them out of my life). If I do respect them then my own definition of "respect" forces me to tell them the truth. In that situation I'd just lay out my reasoning as clearly as possible. But i'd also be asking him why he wants to be submissive. He must see some payoff there somehow and that's the fulcrum upon which this whole thing teeters.

Going back to some corporate problem solving training I'd want to know these things if an employee brought me something like this (work related)

- What is the current state?
- What is the desired new state?
- What is the gap between A and B?
- What are the expected benefits of B?

That would give me a better handle on what he thinks the current problem is. I don't think you can tackle the "encourage him to lead" part till you've gotten him off the "submissive" path and to do that you'll need to understand in detail why he's on that path to start with.

edited to add
that same process will tell you whether he really is on the right path after all? There are lots of dominant personalities who choose to submit for whatever reasons seem appropriate to them -- several on these boards. I got some guesswork from you OP and I'd recommend removing that.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 8/10/2013 1:42:24 AM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 2:18:45 AM   
Extravagasm


Posts: 230
Joined: 9/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

OP post 24: to clear up the seeming belief that I am trying to change this young man. I did not offer my opinion to him on this topic, he asked for it

quote:

mummyman post4: Explore the subject for the evening with him. Dominant traits can be the signs of an Alpha sub male or a person still figuring out who he is.

quote:

OP post 12: He and I have had this conversation . . . . I have given him my opinion about how aggressive he is about many things and how many of his actions have me believing that he is not submissive. He says he understands and that yes there are times when he wishes to be in charge but he ignores them.

quote:

MistressDarkArt post 6: I would have an informal evening of going over a comprehensive checklist.

quote:

OP post 13 I have given him checklists twice now

quote:

LadyPact post 17: Unless he is unhappy with what he is choosing to do, why not allow him his own path of self-discovery?

quote:

OP post 22: He is unhappy...that much he has flat out told me. He wants to be submissive and doesn't understand why he can't be.

quote:

LadyPact post 25: I could think of a thousand things that might make a person unhappy

quote:

OP post 26: I was looking for a polite way to give him an opinion that he asked for. . . . Are you suggesting that when someone asks my opinion I should just tell them to bugger off

No.

And you have fulfilled your obligations for his situation.


_____________________________

BDSM operates on submission. Not on love, fairness, or convention.

The way to a Dom . . is to follow his karma, wallow in his grime, Swim in his heart.©

Yeah, fantasy is not reality. That's how it gives direction to the truly gifted.

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 4:49:39 AM   
garyFLR


Posts: 4030
Joined: 5/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

No offense, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Unless he is unhappy with what he is choosing to do, why not allow him his own path of self-discovery? Let him take the time to come into his own when *he* wants to or is ready. He'll appreciate his own learning process more that way than being told who he is by somebody else.



I agree 100%. You can lead a horse to water etc. Keep a friendly relationship, let him find his own way, there are more dynamics than D/s, from the tone of your posting it sounds as though you get on, by the fact you've been talking for quite a while. Why not offer advice & guidance? Hopefully a good friendship will grow.


_____________________________

Chairman of the Lady TNDommeK Appreciation Society, in celebration of all things Ducklippery & Luxuriant :-D.

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 5:54:13 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

Those of you that know me might find it odd that I am asking this question, I don't normally have issues just telling a person what I think...but....

I am having issues with telling a young man my real opinion. He is new to WIITWD and very willing to learn in many ways, but I don't believe he is what he thinks he is (submissive) I think he believes that he has to be submissive because he is small of build, has a soft voice, and has MS. I think he believes that because he can not overpower a person he must submit to them. He seems constantly amazed that I am dominant and in a wheelchair. I have spoken to him for awhile now. I can hear the drive in his voice, the desire to lead, etc. So....suggestions on how to tell him, and more to point how to help him build faith in himself, that he can?


My personal observation often leads me to believe that most people are not what they believe themselves to be. It's human nature.

Hell, we have people that post on here, or at least used to.........that call themselves dominant, submissive, what the fuck ever.... some even in actual relationships with one another. They, and the people they are in the relationships see themselves as they are calling it. Who am I to say otherwise.

I see many, if not MOST, s-types as passive aggressive twits that are looking for nothing more than a scapegoat when life goes off the rails and someone to deal with the shit in life. Instead of being an adult and taking responsibility for their own shit. ( not even getting into the purely kink driven males of the lot) But wanting to 'submit', wholly and continually, on only their terms........which really isn't submission at all....to ME.

I see many, if not MOST, dominant types as chest thumping insecure idiots looking for an easier path to being a domineering asshole rather than actually making an effort at a relationship.

Those are MY views.......right or wrong. I hold myself and those in my life to pretty honest reflection of self and personal responsibility. For ME, it's not about being perfect, it's about being honest and owning your own shit. Not many people are comfortable with that. It's generally not very sexy or warm fuzzy.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 6:24:55 AM   
ClassAct2006


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline 		People usually say I am not submissive if I simply do not want them (because they are not for me or weigh 300 pounds or unemployed or very low IQ or whatever). So I tend to treat people's comments about whether I am submissive or not with a pinch of salt. We all can decide what we are and what labels to use.

Now of course I may not be someone else's idea of submissive (because for example I have a job or because I am successful or because I don't cut myself and am not on anti depressants needing to be saved by a man or whatever warped view they have ) and that is fine - they should look elsewhere but it's not fair to say I'm not submissive because I earn quite a lot or can cope with life which is sometimes said.

However if you are close to someone and have useful information give them which will have a good effect then I don 't see the harm in plitely and kindly offering an opposite view.


(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 7:33:11 AM   
VanillaKinkTwist


Posts: 17
Joined: 7/24/2013
From: Under Your Bed, Michigan
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

Those of you that know me might find it odd that I am asking this question, I don't normally have issues just telling a person what I think...but....

I am having issues with telling a young man my real opinion. He is new to WIITWD and very willing to learn in many ways, but I don't believe he is what he thinks he is (submissive) I think he believes that he has to be submissive because he is small of build, has a soft voice, and has MS. I think he believes that because he can not overpower a person he must submit to them. He seems constantly amazed that I am dominant and in a wheelchair. I have spoken to him for awhile now. I can hear the drive in his voice, the desire to lead, etc. So....suggestions on how to tell him, and more to point how to help him build faith in himself, that he can?



quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

He is unhappy...that much he has flat out told me. He wants to be submissive and doesn't understand why he can't be.



quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

He assumes he can't and outside of me "allowing" him to he says he has never tried.



quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

I would like to thank those who have given both advice and opinions but I feel I need to clear up the seeming belief that I am trying to change this young man. I did not offer my opinion to him on this topic, he asked for it, and I am not one to lie or hide what I believe to be the truth.


Ok, so now I am thoroughly confused between your original post and these subsequent posts. The original makes it sound like he believes he is submissive and you believe he is dominant and you don't know how to tell him so. These other three make it sound like he asked your opinion on whether he is dominant or submissive, has told you he wants to be submissive but for unknown reasons believes he cannot be submissive.

So sorry for any misunderstanding in my previous post. It still stands that if someone wants to be something, they can be that something whether someone else thinks they should or not. However it sounds like there is much more in this situation than just trying to 'tell someone they aren't what they think they are'. Without understanding it I cannot offer my opinion or advice but I do wish you luck!

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 7:53:00 AM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		Ditto with the above post. From the original post, it sounded like the OP was going to force her opinion on the victim irregardless of what he thought or wanted.
Now, it seems that he asked for an opinion.

In which case, I don't understand the problem. Tell him what you think and why. End of story. Easy-peasy!

and if he disagrees - be ok with that. It is, after all, his life.

(in reply to VanillaKinkTwist)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 8:41:50 AM   
MAINEiacMISTRESS


Posts: 1180
Joined: 9/12/2012
Status: offline 		Well, I know SIZE has nothing to do with Dominance, unless you are talking about FIGHTING.

Many males I speak with who long to submit are well over 6 feet tall and large of build.

Many Dominants are small of stature (like Myself). Not to mention leaders of great armies in the vanilla world who were small of stature (Napoleon, for one)

Dominance and leadership has little to do with size and more to do with what's in the heart and mind...whether they can attract submissives (and followers) who WANT to be lead by them.

Remind this friend of yours that in D/s, submission should be consensual, not by use of brute force. Talentless cowards use brute force.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

Those of you that know me might find it odd that I am asking this question, I don't normally have issues just telling a person what I think...but....

I am having issues with telling a young man my real opinion. He is new to WIITWD and very willing to learn in many ways, but I don't believe he is what he thinks he is (submissive) I think he believes that he has to be submissive because he is small of build, has a soft voice, and has MS. I think he believes that because he can not overpower a person he must submit to them. He seems constantly amazed that I am dominant and in a wheelchair. I have spoken to him for awhile now. I can hear the drive in his voice, the desire to lead, etc. So....suggestions on how to tell him, and more to point how to help him build faith in himself, that he can?


(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 8:44:07 AM   
MAINEiacMISTRESS


Posts: 1180
Joined: 9/12/2012
Status: offline 		Well, I know SIZE has nothing to do with Dominance, unless you are talking about FIGHTING.

Many males I speak with who long to submit are well over 6 feet tall and large of build.

Many Dominants are small of stature (like Myself). Not to mention leaders of great armies in the vanilla world who were small of stature (Napoleon, for one)

Dominance and leadership has little to do with size and more to do with what's in the heart and mind...charisma, assertiveness, and intent...and whether they can attract submissives (and followers) who WANT to be lead by them.

Remind this friend of yours that in D/s, submission should be consensual, not by use of brute force. Talentless cowards use brute force.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

Those of you that know me might find it odd that I am asking this question, I don't normally have issues just telling a person what I think...but....

I am having issues with telling a young man my real opinion. He is new to WIITWD and very willing to learn in many ways, but I don't believe he is what he thinks he is (submissive) I think he believes that he has to be submissive because he is small of build, has a soft voice, and has MS. I think he believes that because he can not overpower a person he must submit to them. He seems constantly amazed that I am dominant and in a wheelchair. I have spoken to him for awhile now. I can hear the drive in his voice, the desire to lead, etc. So....suggestions on how to tell him, and more to point how to help him build faith in himself, that he can?



(in reply to MAINEiacMISTRESS)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 8:46:34 AM   
MAINEiacMISTRESS


Posts: 1180
Joined: 9/12/2012
Status: offline 		oops, hit Quote instead of Edit.

(in reply to MAINEiacMISTRESS)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 8:54:22 AM   
getoutnow


Posts: 151
Joined: 8/5/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS
Many Dominants are small of stature (like Myself). Not to mention leaders of great armies in the vanilla world who were small of stature (Napoleon, for one)


Joseph Stalin is another :) He was only 5'4 apparently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS
Remind this friend of yours that in D/s, submission should be consensual, not by use of brute force. Talentless cowards use brute force.


All these Dominants who jump on about Size, height, etc. All have no imagination. They can't Dom themselves out of a paper bag lol.

I am small in sature, but I have always Dom'd women who were much taller than me, 5'9 to 6'2. Always made them wear heels so they would tower over me. I have always loved tall amazonian-esck women. I just can't help it.

What makes me laugh, is that they always said, guys taller than them always were submissive in the bedroom. Or when they here of my exploits with them, started to cry and ask what I had that they didnt. Well a brain for one also they said and I quote. "But I didnt know you wanted all that". IOW they treated the girl like a flower lol.

pffft. idiots.

(in reply to MAINEiacMISTRESS)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 9:04:50 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain
Lp, really, I don't care if being a furrie makes him happy. I was looking for a polite way to give him an opinion that he asked for. As for taking myself out of the picture????? Are you suggestion that when someone asks my opinion I should just tell them to bugger off because it has nothing to do with me?

No. I'm saying take the way he interacts with you out of the picture.

I think I'm getting as confused as the others. The first impression that I got from the thread was that it was a case that the guy sees himself as submissive because of his physical stature, rather than the Dominant traits that you see in him. Now, it's sounding more like he believes himself submissive, but you don't see any submission in him for whatever reason.

Aside from giving your opinion, which I'd think would be unusual for you to ask the forum on how to do, since you handle yourself well to begin with, I'm not really getting what the problem is here. If it's just a case of not getting a submissive vibe when he interacts with you, that's simple enough to say. What's the hang up?



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 9:19:57 AM   
Gauge


Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

He is unhappy...that much he has flat out told me. He wants to be submissive and doesn't understand why he can't be.


What doesn't he understand? Why has he said that he "can't be" a sub? Has he tried being submissive and hated it or are you seeing dominant qualities in him and you are telling him he is a dom? Either way the problem has solved itself when he told you he wants to be a submissive. That is what he wants. Offer him your opinion because he asked you, but be respectful of his choice.

I don't know how many people I have heard on here say they are very dominant in their daily lives due to their jobs but they are submissives in every other area because they want to relinquish control. So he may well be well in control of himself which displays as dominant but his heart is in being a sub.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: How to tell someone that they aren't what they thin... - 8/10/2013 9:25:35 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		I won't comment on this case. There are too many unknowns.

ETA. Maybe he is pulling your leg. Just one of the pretend-submissives in order to get into your pants.

< Message edited by Rule -- 8/10/2013 9:26:53 AM >

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 40
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