3 dead PA town hall meeting (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 4:13:29 AM)

http://dailyitem.com/0100_news/x1938690172/3-killed-in-municipal-building-shooting-linked-to-feud-with-Monroe-County-township

Not mentioned in this article is the shooter was shot be a county commissioner.


The gist of this is the township demanded he cleaned up his property of junk- and he says he is disabled on $600 a month with no cash to clean up his property.

Local politics get pretty heated, and frankly I am surprised this does not happen more. You can only push people so far... and many places code enforcement is selective.



pahunkboy -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 4:15:47 AM)

from the link-

"Ross township took me to court & the court ruled I have to vacate my home of 20 years," he wrote on the page called saveRockyshome. "I live on SSI which comes to $600 a month I have no money to clean it up."

Newell said his two rescue dogs "will be put to sleep because no one else will take them."

The property includes an old camper in the front yard filled with wooden pallets, pieces of what appear to be old railroad ties and trash. A garage leans and appears close to collapse, and a propane tank sits inside an old dog house.

State police, who guarded the property early Tuesday, were awaiting a search warrant so they can enter it.

In June, the Pocono Record wrote a story about what it said was an 18-year fight between the township and Newell over his property.

Monroe County Court in August 2012 sided with the township and ordered Newell to vacate and never again occupy or use the property unless he had the permits to do so. The report said Newell had been living out of a car, a 1984 Pontiac Fiero, and in abandoned buildings since being ordered to vacate.

Newell told the paper he was unemployed for years after an injury from a crash and had nowhere else to go.

"They have no right to kick me off my property," he told the newspaper. "They call my property an eyesore. When I bought it, it was one of only three properties on the entire road that didn't have what they call junk."



chatterbox24 -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 5:49:07 AM)

Gun laws shouldn't be stiffer? Individuals should be allowed to carry automatic weapons?

I wonder if the community due to the mans hardship ever offered to help him clean up his property, out of charity? Of course I have no idea of the character of this man, maybe he wouldn't allow it.
Kindness goes a long way. My heart goes out to the families, this man, and the condition in which this horrible tragedy came.



pahunkboy -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 6:33:39 AM)

Reading deeper on this one- the man did not have sewer/septic- it would cost 40K. The battle was over 17 years. In a way- 17 years was pretty lenient of the township to let the process unfold. So it isnt like they gave him 3 months or even a year...

Here is the link to the sewer issue-

http://m.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=%2F20120821%2FNEWS%2F208210318&template=wapart



tj444 -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 6:33:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
an 18-year fight between the township and Newell over his property.


that is a long time to fight.. sounds like it originally started when he built a storage shed which he illegally started living in.. that is why most cities wont allow you to do anything on a property unless you already first have a properly permitted house on the property.. if the township had those restrictions in place then perhaps this wouldnt have started in the first place.. although "collector" types do tend to collect a lot of what most people would call "junk"..



pahunkboy -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 6:38:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
an 18-year fight between the township and Newell over his property.


that is a long time to fight.. sounds like it originally started when he built a storage shed which he illegally started living in.. that is why most cities wont allow you to do anything on a property unless you already first have a properly permitted house on the property.. if the township had those restrictions in place then perhaps this wouldnt have started in the first place.. although "collector" types do tend to collect a lot of what most people would call "junk"..



I agree. I live about an hour from this region. Locally I can tell you the city doesnt just come down on people- a neighbor reports the person and then code shows up. I would guess the Pocano region works the same way.



Lucylastic -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 6:51:01 AM)

ON the bright side, he will have three meals a day and a cot for the rest of his life



pahunkboy -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 7:14:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

ON the bright side, he will have three meals a day and a cot for the rest of his life



That would solve his no where to go problem.

BTW- we found our city owns condemmed houses. I mean sat on them for like 7 years with out repairing or selling them. We were pretty shocked by this. So just because his property gets taken over does not necessarily mean it will be cleaned up- - it could - but maybe not.

I would like to think if I were this guy- the city would give me 17 years to fix whatever....



tj444 -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 7:33:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

BTW- we found our city owns condemmed houses. I mean sat on them for like 7 years with out repairing or selling them. We were pretty shocked by this. So just because his property gets taken over does not necessarily mean it will be cleaned up- - it could - but maybe not.


here in Houston they dont tolerate that shite.. even if you have a lot with no buildings on it, you still need to keep it tidy and the grass/vegitation trimmed regularly.. the fine you if you dont and eventually put on a lien on so the legal costs add up fast.. if its a condemmed house they tell you to fix it or demolish it or they will do that for you.. if they demo the house for you then that adds up to about a $13k lien.. They try to do a good job here.. it would look like Detroit otherwise.. lol



pahunkboy -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 7:38:10 AM)

I seen a fascinating comment on this-

the guy says the code guy is in his way of fixing up his place- that if he does one more thing he can go to jail. Apparently the red tape is onerous, and he has paid thousands into it already- here is a portion of his comment.

// I wouldn't say it's a "small town" problem. It's systemic.

I sit at the meetings and I'm friends with people on the Council. These are good people that have volunteered their time in most cases. However, they feel like their hands are tied by mandates.

The solicitor does most of the talking, and all he does is refers back to BOCA and the Code Enforcement folks. Everyone is afraid of being sued, so no one will look at the situation and make a logical decision. They just defer to the lawyers.

It's sad really.

I'll look around the room when I ask if I can do a simple thing like put some siding on the wall of the property that leaks. These people I know - who are good people and my friends - can't even make eye contact with me. They want to help, but even they are afraid of government.

Govenment is afraid of Government. Imagine that. What a world we've made for ourselves. No one can treat other people like people anymore. We've lost our humanity: and that is the biggest shame in all this/snip


t444, for the most part the govt leaves people alone around here. 20 minutes off the main road is shocking stuff. People live in old campers with no electric are seemingly no water.




tj444 -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 7:54:59 AM)

I have never heard of a city requiring city permission to put siding on your house, any I have seen its building permits & control over accessory buildings, electric, utilities.. The siding thing sounds more like a restriction from an HOA.. those people can get nuts over the color of your house with only a few colors allowed (the only exception with most cities are designated historical property which has its own rules)..



pahunkboy -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 8:00:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I have never heard of a city requiring city permission to put siding on your house, any I have seen its building permits & control over accessory buildings, electric, utilities.. The siding thing sounds more like a restriction from an HOA.. those people can get nuts over the color of your house with only a few colors allowed (the only exception with most cities are designated historical property which has its own rules)..



If it were me- I would have just done it- bam. If any good can come out of this shooting it is examining the role of local code enforcement in our lives.

For myself- I do not want to live where there is no code- or where there is too much code- somewhere in the middle is where I want to be.

Another thing we dont know is what this guys neighbors thought of him. Good will goes a long way in getting along with those around you. AN example- a neighbors dog was barking at 2am. I shot her a text- polite - but wondering if it was her dog. It fixed it. This was the best way to handle it- as some might have called the police. At the same time if we have a bond we over look petty annoyances- as we know it will be reciprocated.



MasterCaneman -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 8:57:00 AM)

I've sat in on town board meetings in the village I live, and you'd think you were in D.C. with how "serious" people get, especially about their properties. And just how parochial and cliqueish they can become. Every town has a resident who falls into Newell's description you know. That one guy who has the hoarding problem, and can't afford to get rid of it, but somehow the pile keeps getting higher and higher every month. It was their fault they allowed it to go on for 17 years, and I think it directly tied in to what eventually transpired. If they had the cajones to shut him down in a year or two, he wouldn't have been allowed to build up so much that he couldn't "afford" to have it removed.

And living in an '84 Fiero? Utter bullshit. He was living in one of the structures on his land and just claiming to live in the car. People like that have a mental issue that needs to be proactively addressed. The problem is, everyone's afraid of getting sued, so they keep tabling the issue until it reaches crisis proportions. And it doesn't help when people on the board are only there to advance their own agendas, which seems to be the case in a lot of smaller towns. I predict that what will eventually come out is a web of backroom dealings, favoritism, cronyism, and that board's unwillingness to address the real issues smaller municipalities face.

The solution to problems like that is to entirely remove that village's responsibility in that area and place it with a larger entity, say the county or state. They can come in and enforce the laws more effectively, and have the resources to better challenge whatever legal argument he would try to make to keep his rat-pile intact. They'd also be in a better position to observe and react to what was apparently a hoarding issue and provide the proper mental health services this guy apparently needs. Which they now have to, as he will be their guest for the next few decades, because that board failed to act accordingly and promptly.

We've got a guy just like him, one street over from me. Like Newell, he's on SSI and disability, but somehow he always seems to be able to go out picking and fills his yard up with trash. Our board doesn't want to deal with him, because they'd rather deal with the big developers who're putting in the McMansions south of me. I wonder what kind of motivation they're getting for focusing on those people when me and my neighbors are out shooting rats this guy's shitpile attracts? Dealing with people like that doesn't get you "campaign contributions", I believe. And I'll bet that's what that board was more focused on too, until this problem grew too large to be dealt with quietly.



pahunkboy -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 9:03:58 AM)

quote:

living in an '84 Fiero? Utter bullshit


I caught that too. You are correct that every town has a guy like this. And spot on- as to how serious town meetings can get.


Not all junk will attract rats tho. Food and buckets of feces Im sure will.

For those that dont know a fiero is a 2 seat sports car- a tiny one.



Termyn8or -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 9:28:34 AM)

Too bad Newell didn't have better aim. If they ordered me out of my house they would have a whole bunch of dead people on their hands.

And yes tj, you need permits for damnear anything now. You would be surprised, even in places that are not historical districts or anything like that with covenents on the deed you might need a permit to paint. In time, when you learn alot more about the US you will no doubt be happy to go back home and be a bit freer.

Note that I don't generally support shooting up city hall as it is counterproductive, but if I OWN the fucking place I will be damnned if they are going to tell me to stay out of it. I don't give a fuck what their reasoning might be, you have to draw the line somewhere.

Revolutions and shit like that are started by people who one day simply say "I ain't living like this any fucking more".

T^T



punisher440 -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 9:35:37 AM)

FR
The article I read last night on Yahoo news said the guy was living in his car after they evicted him off his property but who knows...they put stuff out at first that later gets proven as false. And one of the commenters on the article said they knew the guy and the reason they were onto him to clean it up was because of his neighbors complaints of lowering their property values.



tj444 -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 9:52:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
And yes tj, you need permits for damnear anything now. You would be surprised, even in places that are not historical districts or anything like that with covenents on the deed you might need a permit to paint. In time, when you learn alot more about the US you will no doubt be happy to go back home and be a bit freer.

Designated historical homes/buildings are different and yes, right down to the paint color & type of paint in some cities.. but most people go into that knowing that a property has that designation and the restrictions the property has.. In some cities you get a tax break or whatever for historical buildings.. but I have never run into a property listed for sale that was one.. People that tend to buy those types of homes want to be historically accurate with paint, repairs, renovations cuz thats their passion..

For the most part, any cities I have looked at want a building to be safe and thats where the majority of restrictions come in, I have never seen a city have a siding restriction.. I have seen HOAs have that tho.. HOAs are another kettle of fish!



pahunkboy -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 10:00:52 AM)

Term, a good number of people feel like you do.


Rules and codes can be onerous- not so much that they are there- but they add cost to whatever project you are looking to do.


440, yup-- 99% of the time it IS a neighbor who complains. Very few cities actively look for people to harass- at least in my area.



MasterCaneman -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 10:11:59 AM)

Our particular problem child collects old furniture and has numerous deep puddles on his property. Furniture and bedding provides nesting areas for rats, and standing water only adds to the problem. His next door neighbor's been cited for dumping gas in his puddles, but the mosquito problem is past becoming an issue here. The county hasn't been able to respond, and the village board is too busy playing touch pee-pee with two of the bigger developers here to bother.



pahunkboy -> RE: 3 dead PA town hall meeting (8/6/2013 10:33:16 AM)

Points taken ^- good luck in finding a solution to this. Hopefully the cats of the area are killing the rats.



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