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Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:09:43 AM   
SweetSarijane


Posts: 3788
Joined: 10/7/2005
From: KC area Missouri
Status: offline 		I was reading a new 360 contact's blog this morning and came across this topic. Forced feminization has been discussed a good bit here, but I've not seen much on the topic of defeminization. This entry is about a 19 year old sub very very new to the lifestyle and involved with her very first Dom. He believes in defeminization. He has so far, she claims had her long long hair shaved to a buzz cut, forbids her any kind of makeup, no jewellery, nails very very short, told her she must gain at least 200lbs., shave her eyebrows, and some rather extreme things are also mentioned. While the entry itself may be just a story or fantasy due to some of the very extreme things mentioned as being done, the topic of defeminization was what got me thinking.

Now some of the extreme things mentioned as being done (keep in mind this is very likely fantasy and not a true story) are teeth and breast removal, and removal of the outer part of the ears to prevent wearing earrings and then enlargement of the ears and nose.

The Dom's philosophy is that vanity has no place in a sub, and subs are only there to please their Master.

I am curious as to opinions, thoughts and views on defeminization from Doms, subs and all, and would love to hear from any that are into this. Why they are into it, etc.

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:14:09 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetSarijane
The Dom's philosophy is that vanity has no place in a sub, and subs are only there to please their Master.

I am curious as to opinions, thoughts and views on defeminization from Doms, subs and all, and would love to hear from any that are into this. Why they are into it, etc.

It's a valid viewpoint.  BDSM culture tends to over-exagerrate the sexual appeal of females- corsets, heels, hair maintenance.  Someone going against that and actually denying all of those outlets to someone can have a profound affect on their self-perception and acceptance of their surrender. 

Feminization and de-feminization do the same thing- make someone hyper aware of who they are by going to an extreme vantage point.  That's the entire point of hyperbole.  It gives you perspective and can jolt you into a new understanding.

Most times we don't THINK about the feminization of women because it's such a norm in our culture.  So making someone de-feminized can be a great way to get them to think about themselves.  I've often advocated this in the practice of taking someone's collar away from them- making them evaluate who they are withOUT their symbols.

Hair, clothes, make-up, these are all symbols and parts of ourselves that we use to form a self-perception.  Having a master take these over and dramatically remove them or change them can be pretty intense.

It's also something that few submissives would ever get involved with.

I'll also add that yes, pleasing the master is the goal, but most masters are pleased with a stereotypical feminized look.  And usually a sub having vanity does not interfere with this goal.  However, there are ways to work out a person's vanity withOUT going to this particular extreme if you know how.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 6/29/2006 8:15:48 AM >

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:15:22 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Well damn, all I can think is that a guy would have to be awfully insecure to in essense make the submissive physically unattractive. At least that is the way it appears to me. He also must not care for her to put her health at risk in demanding she gain 200#. I hope it is only a story and not real but.......damn if it is. Personally I am an artist and enjoy looking at lovely sites. To make her physically unattractive would defnately displease ME.

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:19:17 AM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline 		Personally, I see no point in defeminizing a woman. Hell, it's hard enough to either find one that is feminine, or convert one that isn't into one that is. Why destroy such a thing of beauty as one that is feminine

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:19:19 AM   
zenofeller


Posts: 463
Joined: 6/10/2006
Status: offline 		my personal view of dominance is as a process directed towards growth. in general i don't see how taking away a person's teeth or earlobes promotes growth, since no matter what goes on through their head, something irrecoverable has been lost, and it's more than innocence/naivite/conceit. it's teeth. and earlobes.

ideally one should be competent enough to teach lessons without needing such extremes. would you call walking up to someone and shooting them in the head a course in weapons safety ?

then again, each his own.

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:20:28 AM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
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Status: offline 		I have actually seen this done more with butch lesbians
, and those who liked the  andrognynous "boi" look. Short or non exutent hair,breast binding,wearing of male clothing,etc.

As far as gainng wieght, that would be a new twist to me. But the rest is far from new-some want to be liberated from fixed sexual roles.

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:28:57 AM   
onyurknees


Posts: 26
Joined: 7/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller

my personal view of dominance is as a process directed towards growth. in general i don't see how taking away a person's teeth or earlobes promotes growth, since no matter what goes on through their head, something irrecoverable has been lost, and it's more than innocence/naivite/conceit. it's teeth. and earlobes.

ideally one should be competent enough to teach lessons without needing such extremes. would you call walking up to someone and shooting them in the head a course in weapons safety ?

then again, each his own.


Yes, yes and yes.
IMO everything we do should promote our growth as individuals, parts of a relationship, society, etc.
While I can see the value in some defeminization (no makeup or short hair or what have you) as a way of helping someone who has relied a lot on superficials learn to cope as "themselves", to start lopping off body parts seems way over the top. Dominance, for me, is about being able to dominate by the sheer force of your own being and thus allow the sub/slave to learn more about that aspect of their nature.
Anyone could keep a sub around the house forever by nailing his feet to the floor, but what has anyone learned from that? What growth or change has come from that?
Like others have said before me in this thread, best case scenario for this would be a fantasy... those can go as extreme as they like without anyone having to call 9-1-1.
Lynn

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:29:55 AM   
Submotive


Posts: 440
Joined: 9/9/2005
Status: offline 		Defeminization is one thing - creating someone grotesque quite another. i don't see how requiring a sub to gain so much weight, removing part of the ears and enlarging the ears and nose have anything to do with defeminization. Shortening the hair, even shaving it, well that i could see, forbidding make up, jewelry, anything considered "girlie" i would categorize as part of defeminization. But the rest is just plain sadistic BS as far as i'm concerned.
 
A 19 year old girl better think long and hard before agreeing to this so-called Dom. What's next? Removing her breasts? Geesh. i think this character would be better off having a relationship with an Orangutan. 
 
Okay male subs, get ready to have your balls lobbed off as part of feminization. YIKES.

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:36:07 AM   
zenofeller


Posts: 463
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Status: offline 		orangoutans are actually very loving, caring primates. i don't think one would satisfy in the circumstance.

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:40:20 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		I could take a pile of shit, whip it and layer it in some pretty parfait glasses topped with a sprig of mint and set it out on a buffet and everyone would look at it and find it appealing....but it wouldn't change what it is....a pile of shit.

Now I can tell you that I do some things in my life that are not considered to be feminine. Hunting, motorcycling....and although I haven't done it in a while, semi professional bare knuckle street fighting.  When I am engaging in those activities I can assure you that I look far less than feminine. But it doesn't make me any less of a woman, it doesn't make me less feminine and it doesn't change the way I view myself.

It would seem to me that the methods he plans to implement to take the subs focus off of her vanity have a strong chance of backfiring and making her even more focused on her vanity....or worse.

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~erin~

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:41:42 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: onyurknees
Dominance, for me, is about being able to dominate by the sheer force of your own being and thus allow the sub/slave to learn more about that aspect of their nature.
Anyone could keep a sub around the house forever by nailing his feet to the floor, but what has anyone learned from that? What growth or change has come from that?
Like others have said before me in this thread, best case scenario for this would be a fantasy... those can go as extreme as they like without anyone having to call 9-1-1.
Lynn

But we're all supportive of people getting piercings, tattoos, brands, permanent collars.  We're all happy and giddy and show off the things that are generally considered romantic and pretty and adorable and difficult.

But we're not so supportive when it's not something "pretty" or what we consider "romantic."

Again, I agree that certain extremes are certainly not necessary to achieve a goal of "no vanity" but then no one needs a collar to acheive a goal of "being a good submissive" yet nearly everyone supports that.

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:44:07 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		You are going into the pile with marieToo of the people who are going to have me present and earnestly supervising the preparation of any meal you serve me..........

That is just a goddam fact, Lady!!!!!

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:46:53 AM   
Submotive


Posts: 440
Joined: 9/9/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller

orangoutans are actually very loving, caring primates. i don't think one would satisfy in the circumstance.

that's because someone hasn't tried to make them something they ain't.

_____________________________

Owned by Scotch Master

i would rather continue alone than be permitted to show only parts of myself to my Beloved.

If you're not living as you would like to today, when are you going to start?

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:51:25 AM   
zenofeller


Posts: 463
Joined: 6/10/2006
Status: offline 		i can attest that not quite everyone is as lost in form as you fear, albatross.

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:51:26 AM   
zumala


Posts: 1121
Joined: 6/16/2005
Status: offline 		I found this thread to be a little baffling, to be honest.  I don't think you need to mutilate someone to cure them of vanity.  Actually, I suspect that doing all the things mentioned would likely destroy any self-esteem they may have had as well as the vanity.
 
I guess if you have a 'girly' girl, you could tone down the vanity by taking away the make-up and jewelry.  Perhaps the brandname clothing.
 
I could be the wrong one to ask, though.  I'm female, but rarely do I fuss about my hair, or wear make-up or jewelry.  I wouldn't be surprised if a Dom were to want to 'feminize' me rather than go the other direction.  Not that I'm not female.  I'm just not the type to make myself uncomfortable so that I look good to everyone else.
 
zuma

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 8:54:22 AM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		I find it telling that the overriding trend so far is outrage at the thought of a sexual role being subverted. One of the base objectives *of* objectification being to level a being to the status of "it".

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 9:01:59 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

my personal view of dominance is as a process directed towards growth.


zeno,
Not necessarily and it can be a cause of relationship failure, if your expectation in a relationship is that your partner will facilitate your "growth". Dominance, or submission for that matter, should be a process of self discovery. In submission there is freedom to be submissive in a world that sees a need to push both men and woman to "succeed". Woman now have to justify being stay at home wives/mothers not "working" at a career. Unless you are defining "growth" as a process of being comfortable in your identity.

It sounds like the reference in the OP is a fantasy. But I can relate to the process because some of my requirements of beth may be defined as "de-feminizing". The more obvious and public is; except for special occasions she is not permitted any make-up. I've been with some woman who would have considered this a hard limit. I want beth "naked" for me as much as possible. I needed for her to know that I am very pleased with her appearance without enhancement. she needed to know that I appreciated her natural beauty. Was my goal to humiliate her in public? Quite the contrary, I wanted her to be proud of the beauty I saw she had that goes deeper than her skin. she tells me she has stretch marks on stomach. I've seen her naked just about every day for the last 4 years - I've never seen them, and I doubt I ever will .

Is her current comfort level of not wearing make-up growth? Some may define growth that way. However beth confessed that she didn't like wearing make-up anyway but always wore it because her male partners required it, or because she thought it was part of the requirement of being dressed in public as a woman. Did eliminating make-up make her less a woman or de-feminize her? No - it freed her to be comfortable in the self discovery that her beauty did not require it.

The methods referred in the original post are extreme but the concept is the same. Is points to purging all the physical personal perception of self. The "master" wants her to see what he sees beyond the superficial. Considering all the posts and counter posts about appearance related criteria maybe more people need to experience some form of this in order to be comfortable with who they are. Who they are is not represented by appearance. Most people never learn that lesson. But the lesson isn't "growth" is honest self awareness.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 6/29/2006 9:27:55 AM >

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 9:12:17 AM   
zenofeller


Posts: 463
Joined: 6/10/2006
Status: offline 		you misunderstand me on two scores. i'm not interested in my partners facilitating my growth. i am aware i can facilitate theirs. i may chose to do so or not, based on criteria that include their needs, but aren't limited to those needs. however i will not push them back.

as to what exactly i meant by growth, take the word with kindness. i suspect what you would mean by "increase of self-awareness" i would mean by growth.

taking out teeth is not the same as not taking out teeth, because if you take them out they aren't in anymore. it's all that simple, and it's important. the "concept" may well be the same, but the results are not.

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 9:35:47 AM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		It is a common misconception, borne from arrogance, that a Dominant MAKES a sub grow.

What we do is to provide the acceptance and enviornment to facillate thier own unfolding to thier inherent potential-nothing more.

< Message edited by Caretakr -- 6/29/2006 9:36:16 AM >

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RE: Defeminization - 6/29/2006 9:40:56 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr
It is a common misconception, borne from arrogance, that a Dominant MAKES a sub grow.

What we do is to provide the acceptance and enviornment to facillate thier own unfolding to thier inherent potential-nothing more.

It's also a misconception that subs don't do exactly the same thing for doms.

They do, all the time.  :)

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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