tazzygirl
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quote:
It seems to me an astonishingly implausible stretch to argue that even at 30+ weeks a fetus cannot experience pain. Moreover, this is basically the same argument that was used to claim that animals don't experience pain in the same way we do, and that people protesting cruelty in research labs were over-emotional, ignorant, and anti-science.
I'd have thought we were past that. I'll freely admit that I cannot know for certain if my much-loved cat-pal Aiki's experience of pain is "qualitatively different" from mine, whatever that means, but I'm very sure it's irrelevant.
We arent speaking about cats. Nice try though.
Responses to stimuli are filled with memories. A newborn cringes and pulls away at any stimuli at first. Understandable response. They dont associate it as pain or pleasure at first. That is partly a learned response. However, it might be interesting to note that newborns who are born to parents with a maternal history of hypertension showed less grimace response and less crying upon injection of Vit K at 1 hour than those newborns born to mothers with no history of hypertension.
The whole point in all this is that its being implied that fetuses feel pain like newborns or adults. Science cannot, and has not, stated that is the case. Do they feel? Of course. Can they determine if its pain?
We had a politician who insisted that because a fetus "masturbates? they feel pleasure. Really? Is that an argument the pro-lifers really want to go with?
Scientifically....
Fetal Pain
A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence
Conclusions Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques. Similarly, limited or no data exist on the safety of such techniques for pregnant women in the context of abortion. Anesthetic techniques currently used during fetal surgery are not directly applicable to abortion procedures.
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/local/scisoc/brownbag/brownbag0506/fetalpain.pdf
I dont believe anyone.. especially me... is arguing that a fetus cannot feel. Nor do I have an issue with agreeing that by 24 weeks, they more than likely can discern on some level what may be painful and what may be pleasurable.
A chat lifting from the above source....
Until this evidence changes, the knowledge about the ability to feel pain depending on gestational levels wont change. And as much as people want to tout the need for anesthisia during fetal surgery as a pointing finger at fetal pain, there are many more benefits to anesthesia than just pain relief.
When long-term fetal well-being is a central consideration, evidence of fetal pain is unnecessary to justify fetal anesthesia and analgesia because they serve other purposes unrelated to pain reduction, including (1) inhibiting fetal movement during a procedure63-65; (2)achieving uterine atony to improve surgical access to the fetus and to prevent contractions and placental separation66-70; (3) preventing hormonal stress responses associated with poor surgical outcomes in neonates71,72; and (4) preventing possible adverse effects on
long-term neurodevelopment and behavioral responses to pain.73-75 These objectives are not applicable to abortions. Instead, beneficence toward the fetus represents the chief justification for using fetal anesthesia or analgesia during abortion—to relieve suffering if fetal pain exists. As with any clinical decision, thorough safety and risk-benefit analyses should be undertaken before performing an intervention. Because the principle of beneficence also requires the woman’s physician to act in her best interests, potential fetal benefit must be weighed against real risks to the woman’s health. The safety and effectiveness of proposed fetal anesthesia and analgesia techniques are discussed below...........
.............
CONCLUSIONS
Pain is an emotional and psychological experience that requires conscious recognition of a noxious stimulus. Consequently, the capacity for conscious perception of pain can arise only after thalamocortical pathways begin to function, which may occur in the third trimester around 29 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, based on the limited data available. Small-scale histological studies of human fetuses have found that thalamocortical fibers begin to form between 23 and 30 weeks’ gestational age, but these studies did not specifically examine thalamocortical pathways active in pain perception.
While the presence of thalamocortical fibers is necessary for pain perception, their mere presence is insufficient—this pathway must also be functional. It has been proposed that
transient, functional thalamocortical circuits may form via subplate neurons around midgestation, but no human study has demonstrated this early functionality. Instead, constant SEPs appear at 29 weeks’ PCA, and EEG patterns denoting wakefulness appear around 30 weeks’ PCA. Both of these tests of cortical function suggest that conscious perception of pain does not begin before the third trimester. Cutaneous withdrawal reflexes and hormonal stress responses present earlier in development are not explicit or sufficient evidence of pain perception because they are not specific to noxious stimuli and are not cortically mediated.
A variety of anesthetic and analgesic techniques have been used for fetal surgery, including maternal general anesthesia, regional anesthesia, and administration of medications for placental transfer to the fetus. However, these techniques are not necessarily applicable to abortions. Surgical procedures undertaken for fetal benefit use anesthesia to achieve objectives unrelated to pain control, such as uterine relaxation, fetal immobilization, and
possible prevention of neuroendocrine stress responses associated with poor surgical outcomes. Thus, fetal anesthesia may be medically indicated for fetal surgery regardless of whether fetal pain exists.
In the context of abortion, fetal analgesia would be used solely for beneficence toward the fetus, assuming fetal pain exists. This interest must be considered in concert with maternal safety and fetal effectiveness of any proposed anesthetic or analgesic technique. For instance, general anesthesia increases abortion morbidity and mortality for women and substantially increases the cost of abortion. Although placental transfer of many opioids and sedative-hypnotics has been determined, the maternal dose required for fetal analgesia is unknown, as is the safety for women at such doses. Furthermore, no established protocols exist for administering anesthesia or analgesia directly to the fetus for minimally invasive fetal procedures or abortions. Experimental techniques,such as administration of fentanyl directly to the fetus and intra-amniotic injection of sufentanil in pregnant ewes, have not been shown to decrease fetal pain and are of unknown safety in humans.
Because pain perception probably does not function before the third trimester, discussions of fetal pain for abortions performed before the end of the second trimester should be noncompulsory. Fetal anesthesia or analgesia should not be recommended or routinely offered for abortion because current experimental techniques provide unknown fetal benefit and may increase risks for the woman. Instead, further research should focus on when pain-related thalamocortical pathways become functional in humans. If the fetus can feel pain, additional research may lead to effective fetal anesthesia or analgesia techniques that are also safe for women.
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/local/scisoc/brownbag/brownbag0506/fetalpain.pdf
Taking all that into consideration, and from various studies I have read on both sides of the debate, one thing is amazingly clear. Pain perception, as we know it, isnt possible before 24 weeks. One study I read discussed the various fetal surgeries and how those premature babies (which many babies after fetal surgery are then "born"). I do believe these surgeries (which is really what they are speaking about when they say "noxious stimuli" ) can jump start a link that would not otherwise be there. But at what point that jump start is connected can only be speculation at this point.
I would love to see more definitive studies... but.. honestly.. what woman is going to jeopardize her pregnancy to allow science to make that determination? So all we have is empirical evidence coupled with limited testing abilities and post mortem exams.
Anyways, just my thoughts.
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< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 8/10/2013 3:38:35 AM >
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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 
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