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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 1:41:43 PM   
JeffBC


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So when I went and looked at the source material it was, of course, crap. This is true of most such stories. The source links were much less crap... and also much less definitive. Those actually spoke in scientific terms rather than sweeping (and incorrect) generalizations.

From my own standpoint I'm not even sure I see that much of an issue. There were various weeks mentioned in the article starting with 23. So we currently have it set at 20. I'm ok with some padding for safety margin. As our knowledge continues to expand we can refine those numbers but right now it seems like all is good.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 2:01:42 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Im pretty much the same. There are a few states that allow it up to 28 weeks. Im not comfortable with that. Most are 20, the rest 24. I would have no problem with abortion on demand up to 20 weeks, then for cases of mothers health, fetal problems or rape... and the rape at that point only under extreme circumstances.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 2:06:51 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Im pretty much the same. There are a few states that allow it up to 28 weeks. Im not comfortable with that. Most are 20, the rest 24. I would have no problem with abortion on demand up to 20 weeks, then for cases of mothers health, fetal problems or rape... and the rape at that point only under extreme circumstances.

This is a bad idea. Giving the forced birthers an inch and they'll take a mile. States that have passed these bogus fetal pain restrictions are now passing fetal heartbeat restrictions, which would functionally outlaw all abortions as they are claiming a fetal heartbeat exists at 6 weeks.

SCOTUS said all abortions were legal until viability and that is at least 22 weeks and more realistically 24.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 2:07:33 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		And the one set at 6 weeks didnt stand up to court challenge.

quote:

SCOTUS said all abortions were legal until viability and that is at least 22 weeks and more realistically 24.


And 21.6 weeks was viable. There is too much wiggle room at this time. Err on teh side of caution and say 20 weeks.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 8/8/2013 2:08:22 PM >

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 2:13:08 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Im pretty much the same. There are a few states that allow it up to 28 weeks. Im not comfortable with that. Most are 20, the rest 24. I would have no problem with abortion on demand up to 20 weeks, then for cases of mothers health, fetal problems or rape... and the rape at that point only under extreme circumstances.

I don't know what the actual legal limits are for the UK (I haven't looked them up).
I can only go by what the doctor told the wife when she got pregnant....

You're ok up to 16 weeks.
Most doctors have done most tests by that time and they assume you have made any final decision by then too.
Between 16 and 20 weeks, unless something pretty abnormal happens, these weeks are just monitored for baby development.
Anything over 20 weeks for aborting is frowned upon and you'd need a fucking good reason to go ahead at that stage because most hospitals would refuse to do it.
Over 24 weeks and unless the mother's life is at serious risk, it would be refused.

I've not heard of anything in the news in recent years where an abortion over 24 weeks was performed in the uk.
I think, for the most part, I agree with the UK limits.
There's no way would I support abortions over 24 weeks unless the mother was in serious risk of losing her life.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 2:16:48 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		Regarding the nitpicky crap about the digestive system and me saying "Eat" instead of "Absorb nutrients" I was making the post so the audience could understand OK.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 2:31:34 PM   
searching4mysir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

If you're putting it in your mouth as food, then you plan to digest it. The OED says so:
"any nutritious substance that people or animals eat or drink or that plants absorb in order to maintain life and growth"
So without the necessary plumbing south of your mouth, then whatever you put in your mouth isn't food, just a waste of time.

If we're going back to the original topic though, perhaps you could answer my query about how pain isn't mediated by the central nervous system if that can emulate pain in bits that are no longer attached to its body?



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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 4:25:04 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
That's why I said CNS (central nervous system), rather than CC (cerebral cortex).


But, the CNS starts developing in the 3rd week. Since we're not talking about fetal pain in the first 2 weeks, your "lack of CNS" argument isn't accurate. And, since a complete CNS isn't required to feel pain, I'm not sure where you were trying to go.


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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 6:12:10 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You just quoted something that agrees with what I quoted and pretended it didn't.

I "pretended" it didn't?

You claimed that the fetus cannot experience pain before 26 weeks, and quoted Davis in support: the part of the brain that perceives pain is not connected to the part of the body that receives pain signals until about 26 weeks.... I quoted Van de Velde (2012), noting that Davis got her medical degree long before 2012 and apparently hasn't kept up: From 16 weeks’ gestation pain transmission from a peripheral receptor to the cortex is possible....

Thanks for the laugh.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 8/8/2013 6:34:52 PM >

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 8:13:31 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You just quoted something that agrees with what I quoted and pretended it didn't.

I "pretended" it didn't?

You claimed that the fetus cannot experience pain before 26 weeks, and quoted Davis in support: the part of the brain that perceives pain is not connected to the part of the body that receives pain signals until about 26 weeks.... I quoted Van de Velde (2012), noting that Davis got her medical degree long before 2012 and apparently hasn't kept up: From 16 weeks’ gestation pain transmission from a peripheral receptor to the cortex is possible....

Thanks for the laugh.

K.


Possible means speculation. The fact is the nerve pathway is not fully developed until 26 weeks.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 9:04:11 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Possible means speculation. The fact is the nerve pathway is not fully developed until 26 weeks.

Follow me closely here. A claim that something is not possible is opposed by a claim that it is possible. Furthermore, it's not a "nerve pathway" (singular). It's a rich complex of connections, and to claim that nothing can traverse any of those connections until the last one is completed is absurd.

K.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 9:09:00 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Possible means speculation. The fact is the nerve pathway is not fully developed until 26 weeks.

Follow me closely here. A claim that something is not possible is opposed by a claim that it is possible. Furthermore, it's not a "nerve pathway" (singular). It's a rich complex of connections, and to claim that nothing can traverse any of those connections until the last one is completed is absurd.

K.

Sure....
When did you get your degree in evodevo? Or is it in embryology? Until then I'll believe the many unbiased sources that say the fetus cannot experience pain until at least the 26th week.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/8/2013 9:19:00 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Sure....
When did you get your degree in evodevo? Or is it in embryology? Until then I'll believe the many unbiased sources that say the fetus cannot experience pain until at least the 26th week.

Now you're just making shit up. I've never claimed to be speaking from my own personal expertise, and none of the sources I've cited have relied on any information provided by me. Calling them "biased" because they happen to disagree with you is puerile nonsense. The only sources with apparent conflicts of interest are the two that Salon relied on.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 8/8/2013 9:24:06 PM >

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 7:14:23 AM   
Marc2b


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Status: offline 		First, my usual disclaimer: I am, have been for some time, and remain, pro-choice.

Yet (feeling mildly smug, I confess) I continue to shake my head at the lengths of intellectual dishonesty people will go to in order to deny that a human being - with all of its' potential joys, pains, trials, and triumphs of life - is being snuffed out. So they don't feel pain... so what? Let's just be honest and admit that we are denying the legal right to life to persons under the age of twenty-four (or whatever) weeks as measured from conception.

Why can't we just admit that because they don't look like a human (or, rather, our idea of what a human should look like) we really don't give a shit about them and so, when their existence clashes with that of another (the mother) we have no problem with killing them... but, once they start to look like an actual baby (and our protective paternal instincts start to kick in) we change our mind?



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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 9:13:01 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

]

Really?!?


That's why I said "When you smash his fingers"


Yer moving the cricket wicket.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 9:15:05 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Sure....
When did you get your degree in evodevo? Or is it in embryology? Until then I'll believe the many unbiased sources that say the fetus cannot experience pain until at least the 26th week.

Now you're just making shit up. I've never claimed to be speaking from my own personal expertise, and none of the sources I've cited have relied on any information provided by me. Calling them "biased" because they happen to disagree with you is puerile nonsense. The only sources with apparent conflicts of interest are the two that Salon relied on.

K.


Wrong as usual. Your sources were forced birthers. Long experience shows that forced birthers always lie. I checked non forced birther sources and they disagree so I stick with the side not proven to lie at every opportunity.

http://jezebel.com/hear-a-crisis-pregnancy-center-staffer-lie-about-condom-1071216007

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 9:37:19 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Yet (feeling mildly smug, I confess) I continue to shake my head at the lengths of intellectual dishonesty people will go to in order to deny that a human being - with all of its' potential joys, pains, trials, and triumphs of life - is being snuffed out.

Here then... let me ease some of your pain.

I'm pro-abortion and I don't even begin to deny that. Yup, we're ending the potential of a human life even if that abortion was done a few days into conception. I get that. So what? In case you hadn't noticed there are quite a few humans on this planet. Is there something in particular that makes each one so special? if there is, then can someone explain to me global warming, wars, pollution, poverty, and the like?

I'm pro-abortion, anti-cruelty. I see it no different than slaughtering cattle.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 11:51:13 AM   
erieangel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer

radical pro-lifers...

Granting that "radical pro-lifers" take some extreme positions, 20 weeks is not one of them.

Austria:         12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Belgium:         12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Bulgaria:        12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Czech Republic:  12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Denmark:         12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
France:          12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Germany:         12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Greece:          12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Hungary:         12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Italy:           12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Latvia:          12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Lithuania:       12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Luxembourg:      12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Netherlands:     13 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Poland:          12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Portugal:        16 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Romania:         14 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Slovakia:        12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Slovenia:        10 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Sweden:          18 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter

Source

K.



I just love this. When it comes to abortion, pro-lifers want to do what Europe is doing, or make it even more strict. Yet, when it comes to social programs or universal health care, why we just can't have any of that European socialism. Not in this country!!




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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 11:58:53 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer
radical pro-lifers...

Granting that "radical pro-lifers" take some extreme positions, 20 weeks is not one of them.

Austria:         12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Belgium:         12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Bulgaria:        12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Czech Republic:  12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Denmark:         12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
France:          12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Germany:         12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Greece:          12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Hungary:         12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Italy:           12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Latvia:          12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Lithuania:       12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Luxembourg:      12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Netherlands:     13 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Poland:          12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Portugal:        16 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Romania:         14 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Slovakia:        12 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Slovenia:        10 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter
Sweden:          18 weeks - limiting conditions thereafter

Source
K.

I just love this. When it comes to abortion, pro-lifers want to do what Europe is doing, or make it even more strict. Yet, when it comes to social programs or universal health care, why we just can't have any of that European socialism. Not in this country!!


K didn't call for following Europe's lead. He was demonstrating that the "extreme positions" of US "radical pro-lifers" isn't really all that extreme.


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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 12:06:41 PM   
Marc2b


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Status: offline 		My point is that there is nothing potential about it. It is a human life. People like to say things like "it's just a clump of cells," meaning "it doesn't look human therefore we can pretend that it isn't." My contention is that a clump of cells is what a human looks like, shortly after conception. Just because such a person doesn't fit our notion (based, I'll admit upon lack of experience... we don't normally see people a few days after conception) of what a human looks like doesn't mean that they are not human. If they are not human... then what the hell are they?

The fact of the matter is assigning "humaness" to someone at any point past conception (when all the proper DNA that defines a human is there) is arbitrary... and serves only the purpose of assuring our conscience that abortion is not really a big deal.

I know there are some people who will read this and assume I am being disingenuous when I proclaim myself to be pro choice... I am not. I see it as a matter of women's civil rights and health along with the realization that abortions will occur whether they are legal or not so they might as well be legal and thus safer than the illegal kind. But, I regard the left as being (generally) intellectually honest, especially when compared to the right, but abortion seems to be an exception... the amount of euphemisms ("clump of cells") and rationalization ("it doesn't feel pain") employed is staggering.

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