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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 12:09:41 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

My point is that there is nothing potential about it. It is a human life. People like to say things like "it's just a clump of cells," meaning "it doesn't look human therefore we can pretend that it isn't." My contention is that a clump of cells is what a human looks like, shortly after conception. Just because such a person doesn't fit our notion (based, I'll admit upon lack of experience... we don't normally see people a few days after conception) of what a human looks like doesn't mean that they are not human. If they are not human... then what the hell are they?

The fact of the matter is assigning "humaness" to someone at any point past conception (when all the proper DNA that defines a human is there) is arbitrary... and serves only the purpose of assuring our conscience that abortion is not really a big deal.

I know there are some people who will read this and assume I am being disingenuous when I proclaim myself to be pro choice... I am not. I see it as a matter of women's civil rights and health along with the realization that abortions will occur whether they are legal or not so they might as well be legal and thus safer than the illegal kind. But, I regard the left as being (generally) intellectually honest, especially when compared to the right, but abortion seems to be an exception... the amount of euphemisms ("clump of cells") and rationalization ("it doesn't feel pain") employed is staggering.

All the proper DNA is in a cancerous tumor. Is that a human as well?
Is a wart human?
Is hair human?
Is an ovarian cyst human?

All the proper DNA is there but all the above are trashed by the ton every year.

DNA doesn't make a human.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 12:12:49 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
The fact of the matter is assigning "humaness" to someone at any point past conception (when all the proper DNA that defines a human is there) is arbitrary... and serves only the purpose of assuring our conscience that abortion is not really a big deal.

By your rationalization, HeLa cells are humans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa

So is cleaning up a lab murder?

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 12:25:46 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

By your rationalization, HeLa cells are humans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa

So is cleaning up a lab murder?


No it would not be murder since those cells, under normal, natural processes, will not grow into a human being.

And so it begins...



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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 12:36:45 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

By your rationalization, HeLa cells are humans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa

So is cleaning up a lab murder?


No it would not be murder since those cells, under normal, natural processes, will not grow into a human being.

And so it begins...



So it does begin.
Let's go a few years into the past when vertebrate cloning became possible. That's right, the past.
The only reason human cloning hasn't happened is that some crazy SOB with no morals and a lot of knowledge and money hasn't done it. Or maybe they have and we just haven't found out yet..

So much for your argument. Now, one of those cells COULD become a human.

Harvest stem cells? It happens all the time.
Are they tossed afterwards? Frequently.
Could they be used to clone a human?
Damn right they could.
Are they human?

_____________________________

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 12:51:02 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

So it does begin.
Let's go a few years into the past when vertebrate cloning became possible. That's right, the past.
The only reason human cloning hasn't happened is that some crazy SOB with no morals and a lot of knowledge and money hasn't done it. Or maybe they have and we just haven't found out yet..

So much for your argument. Now, one of those cells COULD become a human.

Harvest stem cells? It happens all the time.
Are they tossed afterwards? Frequently.
Could they be used to clone a human?
Damn right they could.
Are they human?


Cloning is hardly a natural process.

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 1:07:02 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

So it does begin.
Let's go a few years into the past when vertebrate cloning became possible. That's right, the past.
The only reason human cloning hasn't happened is that some crazy SOB with no morals and a lot of knowledge and money hasn't done it. Or maybe they have and we just haven't found out yet..

So much for your argument. Now, one of those cells COULD become a human.

Harvest stem cells? It happens all the time.
Are they tossed afterwards? Frequently.
Could they be used to clone a human?
Damn right they could.
Are they human?


Cloning is hardly a natural process.

No it isn't but neither is in vitro fertilization and one is common and the other will be soon.
Decisions made now in medical ethics will be referred to in the future when this is routine.

Human tissue culture is common. Will it be ethical to toss a culture when the source dies if the technology exists to make a new body just like the source.
Will it be the same person?

DNA doesn't make a human.
Consciousness makes a human. Some refer to it as a 'soul' and claim it is immortal.

Remember this thread? http://www.collarchat.com/m_4418352/mpage_1/tm.htm
It was shown that if a 'soul' exists and is indivisible then it cannot enter the fetus at conception as the anti choice folk claim.
Due to the fact that a 'soul' is what makes us human, the zygote is not human.
Consciousness is what makes us human.
Consciousness develops only with a complex and completely formed nervous system.

Your claim that "under normal, natural process" a lump of cells becomes a human could be used to make a case that those born due to heroic medical efforts are not human as they did not develop "under normal, natural process" because they would have died without the unnatural intervention.

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 1:26:06 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

No it isn't but neither is in vitro fertilization and one is common and the other will be soon.
Decisions made now in medical ethics will be referred to in the future when this is routine.


Yes but there we are making an exception because the parents (or, at least, the mother) want it... so the rest of us nod our heads and go along.


quote:

DNA doesn't make a human.

Then nothing makes a human except our arbitrary decisions that suit our purposes.


quote:

Consciousness makes a human. Some refer to it as a 'soul' and claim it is immortal.


See above... particularly the part about "arbitary."
It would be cool if souls actually existed but odds are they don't. No one has ever proved the existance of the soul... and I doubt anyone ever will. Even if you accept the term soul as another word for consciousness I still don't see how that is necessary to be considered human. Is a person in a coma not human?

So why is this issue so important to you? Why are you (and others) so determined to say "its' not human!" (except of course, when the parents want it)?

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 2:07:48 PM   
Marc2b


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Weekend's here!!!

Maybe I'll take this up again on Monday.

In the meantime, I hope everyone has a great weekend.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 2:12:15 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
My point is that there is nothing potential about it. It is a human life. People like to say things like "it's just a clump of cells," meaning "it doesn't look human therefore we can pretend that it isn't." My contention is that a clump of cells is what a human looks like, shortly after conception. Just because such a person doesn't fit our notion (based, I'll admit upon lack of experience... we don't normally see people a few days after conception) of what a human looks like doesn't mean that they are not human. If they are not human... then what the hell are they?

The fact of the matter is assigning "humaness" to someone at any point past conception (when all the proper DNA that defines a human is there) is arbitrary... and serves only the purpose of assuring our conscience that abortion is not really a big deal.

I know there are some people who will read this and assume I am being disingenuous when I proclaim myself to be pro choice... I am not. I see it as a matter of women's civil rights and health along with the realization that abortions will occur whether they are legal or not so they might as well be legal and thus safer than the illegal kind. But, I regard the left as being (generally) intellectually honest, especially when compared to the right, but abortion seems to be an exception... the amount of euphemisms ("clump of cells") and rationalization ("it doesn't feel pain") employed is staggering.

Ok....
So your contention is that a few cells clumped together is actually a human.
I could go with that if... you could tell me that those cells are capable of developing into a human without the major interception of the mother.
At 22 weeks, it is a viable human - on it's own, or has the potential to do so.
Before that, it is unlikely to survive on it's own.

I therefore agree with the definition that a human life, is only a life, if it has a remote chance of having that life on it's own - ie, viable.
Otherwise you could argue that every egg and sperm has the potential to be a life and ergo, every form of contraception should be abolished.
But that's the extreme view of the catholic and few other churches isn't it??
So olde-fashioned and still in the dark ages that their flock is diminishing in the civilised world very rapidly.

The world has evolved and progressed a lot since those times.
The people need to go with it and not be stuck in a rut like the catholics and islamists are.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 2:15:47 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

So why is this issue so important to you? Why are you (and others) so determined to say "its' not human!" (except of course, when the parents want it)?


If its delivered with "signs of life" a birth certificate is filled out. If not, a Fetal Death Certificate is filed.

Just because someone calls something "My baby" doesnt make it true.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 8/9/2013 2:17:32 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 3:23:57 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

By your rationalization, HeLa cells are humans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa

So is cleaning up a lab murder?


No it would not be murder since those cells, under normal, natural processes, will not grow into a human being.

And so it begins...



You just said that anything post conception is human. HeLa cells are many years post conception and have just as much chance of growing into a "human being" as about 2/3rds of fertilized eggs. So which is it? Are any cells with human DNA full fledged humans or not?

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 4:53:25 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Your sources were forced birthers.

You're just making shit up wholesale, again, and tossing in some pejorative name-calling for good measure.

Come back when you've got something that you didn't find under a rock.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 5:50:18 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Your sources were forced birthers.

You're just making shit up wholesale, again, and tossing in some pejorative name-calling for good measure.

Come back when you've got something that you didn't find under a rock.

K.


Are you really trying to claim that a site called doctorsonfetalpain is not a forced birther site?

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 5:54:31 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Weekend's here!!!

Maybe I'll take this up again on Monday.

In the meantime, I hope everyone has a great weekend.

Have a blast.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 6:40:27 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Are you really trying to claim that a site called doctorsonfetalpain is not a forced birther site?

You're just making shit up when you say that the sources are "forced birthers". The sources cited are credible and numerous, regardless of the views of the aggregator. And unlike the two from the Salon article, they do not suffer from an appearance of conflict of interest. Concern for fetal pain is legitimate and humane. To ridicule it is despicable. And if you have nothing to offer except lies and name-calling, then you have nothing to offer at all.

K.

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 7:14:12 PM   
Kirata


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~ FR ~

With regard to the JAMA citation from the Salon article, Fetal Pain: A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence, the following testimony was given before a U.S. House subcommitte in 2005 following the study's publication.

The speaker is Rhodes Scholar Dr. Sunny Anand, Director, Pain Neurobiology Laboratory, Arkansas Children's Hospital Research Institute; Professor of Pediatrics, Anesthesiology, Pharmacology, and Neurobiology, University of Arkansas College of Medicine:

First of all, they present pain as a hard-wired system, whereby pain impulses are conducted from receptors through nerves and nerve pathways until so-called perception occurs in the sensory cortex. This is an incorrect view of pain, which is rather outdated.

For the last 40 years, medical research has shown, beginning from the gate control theory of pain, that pain reception occurs within a multilayered system with numerous elements of nerve fibers and cells, the functions and the characteristics of which will change depending on the type of pain, the context in which it occurs, as well as other cognitive and behavioral demands at that time, so that the processing of pain and indeed perception of pain doesn't simply occur in the sensory cortex. It can occur at various different levels within the nervous system.

Second, Lee and colleagues presume that the structures used for pain perception in adults are the very same structures used during fetal and neonatal life. The lack of development of these structures is then taken as proof that the fetus does not - or the preterm neonate - would not feel pain until 29 to 30 weeks period of gestation. This is again a flawed line of reasoning.

Many years of careful research in which I have participated has shown that the neonate, or the fetus, is not a little adult; that the mechanisms and structures used for pain processing are very different at different stages of development. Indeed the nervous system will use the elements available at that time, at a particular stage of development, to transduce external and internal stimuli, and pain is an inherent, innate part of this system...

Lastly, I would like to identify that there was ambiguous methodology followed in this review whereby 2,100 articles were obtained from PubMed through a detailed search strategy. And the subsequent disconnect of selecting what evidence to include in the data synthesis did not follow the methods of a systematic review. If I were to review this systematic review, it cannot be replicated, and therefore it calls into question the scientific validity of this approach.


In addition, Dr. Anand comments...

I beg to differ with the contention that the perception of pain occurs only in the sensory or the somatosensory cortex. For example, in conscious adults, if you stimulate the sensory cortex, or if you cut it out completely, it will not alter pain perception. Stimulation does not produce pain perception; removing the sensory cortex does not block pain perception.

So if the viability of the sensory cortex is not a necessary criterion for pain perception in adults, why should that be a criterion for fetus and preterm infants and neonates?


Source

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 8/9/2013 7:24:23 PM >

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RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 7:44:08 PM   
tazzygirl


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~FR

From the doctorsonfetalpain site...

2. Derbyshire, 2010, p.7, para.2, “For the foetus, an existence of ‘pain’ rests upon the existence of a stimulus that poses a threat to tissue, being detected by a nervous system capable of preferentially responding to stimuli that pose a threat to tissue. The entire experience is completely bounded by the limits of the sensory system and the relationship between that system and the stimulus. If pain is conceived of in this manner then it becomes possible to talk of foetal pain anytime between 10 and 17 weeks GA [gestational age] when nociceptors develop and mature, and there is evidence of behavioural responses to touch.”

Note: Derbyshire’s other published works indicate that he believes pain requires subjective human experience, not possible until after birth; nonetheless, he acknowledges this finding.

Derbyshire SW, Foetal pain? Best Practice & Research Clinical Obstetrics and Gynaecology 24:5 (2010) 647-655.


From the actual source...

If a behavioural and neural reaction to a noxious stimulus is considered sufficient for pain, then pain is possible from 24 weeks and probably much earlier. If a conceptual subjectivity is considered necessary for pain,however, then pain is not possible at any gestational age.Regardless of how pain is defined, it is clear that pain for conceptual beings is qualitatively different than pain for non-conceptual beings. It is therefore a mistake to draw an equiva-lence between foetal pain and pain in the older infant or adult.

..........

Conclusions
Decisions regarding foetal pain are typically resolved by reference to n neuroanatomy. Before the presence of a system capable of detecting noxious events, it is reasonable to deny the possibility of pain in utero. Deciding the minimally necessary neuroanatomy, however, is not straightforward. There is considerable disagreement regarding the contribution of the cortex and the possibility of pain, and other conscious experiences, being supported subcortically. One reason for this disagreement is the lack of precision in defining what is meant by ‘pain’. If pain is defined in terms of a noxious stimulus being detected by a nervous system that can preferentially respond to stimuli in the noxious range then pain can be attributed to the foetus from around 10 weeks GA. However, if pain is defined as an elaborate multidimensional experience that is subjective, then pain can never be attributed to the foetus because it is implausible to attribute that much conceptual activity to the foetus.


http://www.academia.edu/239302/Foetal_Pain

A rather good read....

I could do more if anyone wishes.





_____________________________

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 7:58:13 PM   
tazzygirl


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~FR

I do find it interesting that the doctors on fetal pain site offer both Anand and Derbyshire as proof of their assertions, especially when they disagree to much.

However the following I completely agree with... In Anand's words...

"For decades, the question of fetal pain has been very much overlaid by the implications that it has for abortion," said Kanwaljeet Anand, director of the Pain Neurobiology Laboratory at the University of Tennessee Health Science Center in Memphis.

Anand did much of the formative work suggesting that fetuses truly feel pain and that they feel it remarkably early. "This has nothing to do with abortion," he said.


http://news.discovery.com/human/life/fetus-pain-abortion-law.htm

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 8:13:31 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

~FR

From the doctorsonfetalpain site...

2. Derbyshire, 2010, p.7, para.2, “For the foetus, an existence of ‘pain’ rests upon the existence of a stimulus that poses a threat to tissue, being detected by a nervous system capable of preferentially responding to stimuli that pose a threat to tissue. The entire experience is completely bounded by the limits of the sensory system and the relationship between that system and the stimulus. If pain is conceived of in this manner then it becomes possible to talk of foetal pain anytime between 10 and 17 weeks GA [gestational age] when nociceptors develop and mature, and there is evidence of behavioural responses to touch.”

Note: Derbyshire’s other published works indicate that he believes pain requires subjective human experience, not possible until after birth; nonetheless, he acknowledges this finding.

Derbyshire SW, Foetal pain? Best Practice & Research Clinical Obstetrics and Gynaecology 24:5 (2010) 647-655.


From the actual source...

If a behavioural and neural reaction to a noxious stimulus is considered sufficient for pain, then pain is possible from 24 weeks and probably much earlier. If a conceptual subjectivity is considered necessary for pain,however, then pain is not possible at any gestational age.Regardless of how pain is defined, it is clear that pain for conceptual beings is qualitatively different than pain for non-conceptual beings. It is therefore a mistake to draw an equiva-lence between foetal pain and pain in the older infant or adult.

You mean a forced birth group lied about science? I'm shocked. Well not really.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: End of discussion. "Fetal Pain Is A Lie..." - 8/9/2013 8:15:00 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Are you really trying to claim that a site called doctorsonfetalpain is not a forced birther site?

You're just making shit up when you say that the sources are "forced birthers". The sources cited are credible and numerous, regardless of the views of the aggregator. And unlike the two from the Salon article, they do not suffer from an appearance of conflict of interest. Concern for fetal pain is legitimate and humane. To ridicule it is despicable. And if you have nothing to offer except lies and name-calling, then you have nothing to offer at all.

K.


They lied about at least one study so it is safe to assume they lied about more and forced birth is what these groups are. They're not pro life as they don't give a shit about life once it exits a woman's body.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 100
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