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myotherself -> RE: From a sadomasochistic POV - I am looking for general clarification on BDSM tendencies and practices (8/8/2013 5:27:18 AM)
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ORIGINAL: pqui
I don't have in person experience with BDSM, but I am very attracted to many BDSM elements such as dominance and submission and especially sadomasochism. I have read a lot on the subject, but the more I actually talk to people about it, the more I realize quite a gap between the real focus of interest, or so to speak the actual essence of the practice, and my personal interests in it.
You've read a lot of porn and then you talked to people who actually do it, and realise that they don't match up. Right. [8|]
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Maybe I need to clarify a few things about myself first: I have sadomasochistic tendencies, which I do not consider to be extreme, in the form that I enjoy physical violence and pain (primarily physical pain) exposure against each other, ideally in the sense of having an 'aggressor' and an 'receiver', which would in my opinion be a D&s, but I am trying to avoid the associations you might have with BDSM terms here.
Your opinion would be wrong, IME. D/s is about two people having a dynamic wherein one leads and the other follows. This does not have to include any kind of sadomasochism. You are using BDSM terms, so unless you are using them as the broadly accepted definition of those terms, then you need to find different ways to describe what you want to say. Otherwise you'll confuse people.
But back to the story - what you are describing sounds like 'topping' and 'bottoming', where one person is the aggressor and the other the receiver for a particular 'scene'.
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You could say that I am overly male in many aspects that do not relate to BDSM at all, and most of them are rather dysfunctional, for example thinking hyper-rational, devoid of emotion, without empathy, aggressive and also dominant, very sex driven and open towards direct physical violence. Effectively however, those traits cannot be outlived socially, so I am basically suppressing them all the time to (realistically speaking) avoid just being outcast socially as a consequence.
This does not describe someone who is 'overly male'. It's nothing to do with maleness. It's someone who has issues that need to be addressed by a professional. If you have to suppress these traits all the time, then you sound like a very dangerous person.
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I believe to whatever extend every male must necessarily do this nowadays, however, still the majority of men do not feel for example a lack of natural and essential social interactiveness if they can't beat each other in the face over some conflict they have. Social environments for this are just extremely sparse and more a universal sink for the socially and otherwise disturbed in general. Or they are just 'recreational'. Maybe if I had less self-control and no sense of justice, I would simply be a psychopath in nowadays society, but then you could say that about probably anyone. I do by no means feel in touch with the vast majority of people. Many things I instinctively feel or long for are not understood correctly and the same is true if I try to understand other people, especially women. I don't get where I am different and to what extends.
You would again be wrong. Having this lack of empathy and a desire to hurt non-consenting people for whatever reason you can think up just makes you dangerous. I'm not a psychiatrist and couldn't say whether this makes you a psychopath or a sociopath, but you would be someone I'd avoid. Your twisted outlook on life is coming across in your social interactions, especially with women, and this is why they avoid you.
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It often seems I am talking about the same thing, but when it gets into depth it turns out to be entirely different. It is often that people say things about themselves, and expressing the wishes they have, but their wishes do not relate to reality at all. Its more like their motivation is to read and write a novel by communication, but not to communicate about real-life. I don't particularly understand that. To pull out something unambiguous and concrete here: If I were to say for example, that I want to be raped and beaten by a woman, that is actually exactly true, even to the extend that I would develop the mentality first to not want it, that is to genuinely not consent in the situation. Rape fantasies, and just keeping it a fantasy, are pretty common as many people know and I can understand that. What I find extremely alienating is when people talk about rape roleplay or acting out rape, but in the form of just smacking someone lightly in the face and calling them dirty words, then having normal sex otherwise (even more alienating is when that was already somehow perceived as traumatizing to them in hindsight). And this seems to be true similarly to most S/M D/s acts within BDSM.
Again, I disagree. Let's talk about rape fantasies. I think the vast majority of women would really, really hate to be raped. Properly raped, as in totally non-consensual, unwanted and emotionally devastating. However, in some relationships there is 'consensual non-consent' wherein the partners agree that one has the right to do whatever s/he wants with the other partner. The critical part is that both partners agree the extent of the act involved.
Now, where the hell did you get the idea that rape roleplay is just a slap, a bit of swearing and then regular sex? Total crap, yet again. Read the boards here and on fetlife and you'll see what it really involves.
And I'm confused - why are you calling D/s an 'act'? For many of us it's the truth of our lives, it's the way we live every day. One is in charge, the other obeys. BDSM can go waaaaaay beyond just kinky sex and s&m. Maybe you should listen a little more to the people who you talk to.
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The fact, that there seems to be a hidden agreement on talking about one thing and doing a completely other thing is just mysterious to me. The fact that there seems to be little to no room in the BDSM or S/M community to not do 'the other thing' at all. For example if I were told to treat you like shit, I would treat you like shit and not wrap that up in some weird gentle fashion where I actually am very considerate and kind towards you and sparsely pretend I treat you like shit. That most people will run away once they realize that you mean what you are talking about, that its not fake but genuine, that it is real and not fantasy. It makes it in general all seemingly very false and pretentious to me, though of course what I described is not universally true to everyone.
At least you put that final phrase in, which redeems this paragraph somewhat. First of all, there is no secret BDSM community where we all come to agreement about what we will and won't do, and then abide by the rules. BDSM is about PEOPLE. My M/s relationship is conducted in the way that works for US. I couldn't give a flying fuck what anyone else thinks of our dynamic, and I couldn't give a flying fuck how anyone else runs their relationship.
What I'm beginning to see here is that you struggle with communication. Seriously struggle. You also seem to struggle with the nuances of human communication and relationships. In all seriousness, has anyone ever mentioned that you might have some kind of communication/relationship disorder? The most common one is, of course, autism spectrum disorder (ASD), but there are others. It might be worth a chat with a health professional.
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Maybe I can clarify on that better with this personal experience:
With time I became somewhat desperate over the lack of sadomasochism, so I did build an DIY online-remote-controllable electroshock device and found a woman who used it on me. So many others were not even willing to try it and one never showed up again after she did. I asked her if I should double the current and after that it did just hurt like hell, more than anything you can get with dog collars or whipping or cutting yourself. It had huge electrodes for the reason that smaller ones would cause too much skin-burns even with half the current. I am very pain resistant, I have went through a lot worse emotionally in drug withdrawals and I realistically don't believe there is anything merely physical that can still impress me much. I programmed 4 shock modes, light to heavy, and the last two were so painful I was in so much fear and subconscious blockade I couldn't even push the button by myself to test them. Anyway, I don't know if she realized the extend of pain it caused. The light shocks were still somewhat sexually arousing, but the hard shocks were so hard, I could just feel pain and it would purge every mental and physical sense of arousal, it was just suffering, fight-or-flight mode, the basic, non-playful primal urge of escaping. And that is really what I was into, submission in the sense of pleasing a sadist who gets off by seeing people genuinely suffer. Pain that makes you feel alive, but also gets so deep that it causes a real sense of intimacy in some strange sadomasochistic way. Anything lower than that wasn't really interesting, sort of being rather a pimped form of masturbation than any kind of masochism. She used to make me masturbate and shocked me in between and she complained that I couldn't get off fast enough. I didn't tell her exactly that the pain was so much that it completely killed the arousal. I did not question at the time that it wasn't just her being sadistic with me and her wanting to humiliate me further, I was just caught in the moment.
Yup, sounds like pretty usual thought processes for a masochist. This is pretty much how I think too, and it seems like she was a pretty decent sadist.
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I was begging for more and more and one day she shocked me so much that it had gone past my limit, I collapsed on the floor, for emotional reasons, somehow shut off from the outside world unable to react to anything, somehow traumatized for a moment, completely involuntary, like an emotional breakdown. It felt really really deliberating and intimate in a way I can't describe.
Yes, you can be pushed to your limits by a serious sadist. I've been there many, many times and understand where you're coming from.
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But she was just worried she had electrocuted me to death or something and became hesitant with the whole thing after that. I would have rather expected her to get a craving for it and do it over and over again. But I also became avoidant of her, without being able to influence it. The pain alone had caused subconscious avoidant behavior I couldn't control. I don't know if an equal amount of reward could have canceled that out, or just the extreme sexual urges I have had if she had been physically around me, but I hope and believe so.
Why should she get a craving for it? She tried it, she went as far as you could with it, then she decided the risks far outweighed the fun and refused to go on. She sounds like a pretty good sadist to me. One who doesn't want to permanently damage someone. You also realised it was too much for you and you avoided her too.
My relationship involves a lot of pain. Sometimes I want it, sometimes I really, really don't. But I do it anyway because I love Master and I TRUST HIM NOT TO PERMANENTLY DAMAGE ME OR KILL ME. It's not about the sex, it's about the relationship. Again, you seem totally focussed on the sexual gratification of BDSM. It's not just about the sex.
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In hindsight I think she would have never done it if she had experienced the pain the device causes. In hindsight, I think she was both too young and inexperienced to evaluate the situation like other people do. And I believe now that she is not really a sadist, at least not in the sense that I would define it or it would relate to a sadist or literal sadomasochism in general.
This is not about her, this is about you. Master doesn't get caned or whipped or choked or any of the things I do. He'd hate it. That's because he's not a masochist. But he's a bloody good sadist. You don't have to be a sadomasochist to be a good sadist. You just have to get a kick out of hurting people. It sounds to me like she evaluated the situation in a very responsible way, and in much the same way as other people would.
It's not her who lacks experience or empathy here - it's you.
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I have read accounts from people who claim to be real (involuntary) sadists, but its all about torture in the sense of harming people financially or indirectly through their environment, emotionally, because supposedly they learn through life that they cannot take the direct route without fearing prosecution. I am not attracted to that by any means. But what about sane, real sadism? Controllable direct physical sadism? I rather expected that to be the main element in S/M.
You need to get out more. I know quite a few sane, real sadists who find nothing more fun than whipping a person who is screaming, crying and begging, and keeping on going until there is blood on the walls and floor.
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Instead, what I see mostly within BDSM is power-play, symbolism, suspense, other fetishes, fantasy stories, sexual kinks like wearing a vibrator in public. It is so contrary to what I can emotionally relate to. I really question what you get out of it, if you dress up in leather getups and chain someone up, then gently beat them with one of those whips that don't really hurt a few times and then just have normal sex. Like its a bad porn movie that tries to avoid legal issues at all cost. The more I talk to women it seems to really be all they are ever capable of, in both the submissive and the dominant role. The lighter and less extreme BDSM gets, the more mysterious and ridiculous it becomes to me. So to speak, some kind of "dominate me, but without ever really hurting me physically or verbally or otherwise and never ever disturb my personal emotional equanimity - but we can dress up pretty, pretend its true in the bedroom and you can tell me what to do but I will always decide if I do it or not .." mentality. What kind of domination is that supposed to be, or submission even? I find that really really disturbing, but its happening to may couples and they seem to understand that as BDSM.
That's because what they understand as BDSM actually IS BDSM. What you're looking for is s&m, which is a part of BDSM but not the whole. You need to widen your reading materials list and talk to people more, and actually listen. Real life isn't a porn movie or someone sitting with electrodes on their bollocks while some woman shocks them over the internet. BDSM for many is about a real-life relationship, with a leader/follower set-up.
The fact that you can't understand it leads me back to the point I keep making repeatedly - you are inflexible in your thinking and you don't understand people.
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So please, someone explain to me, what does it do for you. And what I mean does not relate to taking things into extremes, although I am talking more about 24/7 BDSM relationships here. What I mean is, what does it do to not cut to the chase, to pretend you are doing it but not really doing it, to say one thing then do another, to (metaphorically speaking) have all the getups and symbols and items hung up and ready for the party, dress for the party, then leave the room empty and go to bed without celebrating. What kind of understanding of sadomasochism doesn't involve real pain and real torture? What kind of domination can possibly exist without real points of control and what kind of submission without giving them?
It makes for a stable, happy relationship where he is in charge. Where he makes the decisions and has the last word. Where he decides he wants to cane me until I bleed, then he wants me to make dinner. Where he chooses to cuddle with me and make me giggle, then face-fuck me until I'm crying and puking. It makes for a solid relationship for two compatible people who are in love.
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Please someone explain the gap to me.
The gap is in your mind. You need to realise that life is about people and living, not just kinky sex. Once you get that sorted, the gap will close.
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